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513 points todsacerdoti | 33 comments | | HN request time: 1.05s | source | bottom
1. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42192825[source]
Thanks for sharing! Author here, happy to answer any questions.
replies(14): >>42193691 #>>42193836 #>>42193884 #>>42194114 #>>42195074 #>>42195398 #>>42196248 #>>42196427 #>>42196783 #>>42197142 #>>42197506 #>>42198224 #>>42198810 #>>42202062 #
2. Moosturm ◴[] No.42193691[source]
What an absolutely fantastic read.
3. flohofwoe ◴[] No.42193836[source]
Great post! Minor nitpick: WebGL does support MSAA since WebGL1, but in WebGL1 only on the canvas, and you don't have any control over the number of samples (can only select antialiasing on/off) - not that it matters much anymore :)

What WebGL2 is still missing is MSAA texture objects (it only supports MSAA render buffers), which makes it impossible to directly load individual samples in a shader (useful for custom-resolve render passes). That's only possible in WebGPU.

4. ferbivore ◴[] No.42193884[source]
> Mobile chips support exactly MSAAx4 [...] the driver will force 4x anyways

On what GPUs and through what APIs did you see this? This seems fairly weird. I especially wouldn't expect Apple to have problems.

replies(2): >>42197952 #>>42200340 #
5. ferbivore ◴[] No.42194114[source]
Not a question but some unsolicited (sorry) feedback. The intro seems designed to set people up for disappointment. You start off by talking about AA methods used for 3D scenes, and you've picked a very cool way to present them... but the article is actually about antialiased drawing of SDFs, which is not exactly a hard problem and not applicable to 3D scenes. Unless your scene is made up of SDF shapes, but I don't think the method you're presenting would be fast enough on a nontrivial scene as you would need to rely on alpha-blending across seams. (I think Alex Evans' talk on Dreams mentions they tried something similar to get fuzzy shapes but dropped it due to perf and sorting issues.) In any case, it would have been nice for the article's intro to more clearly say what it's about and what the technique is useful for.
replies(2): >>42194324 #>>42200281 #
6. ◴[] No.42194324[source]
7. amitp ◴[] No.42195074[source]
Fantastic article! I've been trying to figure out antialiasing for MSDF fonts, and have run across some claims:

1. antialiasing should be done in linear rgb space instead of srgb space [1] [2]

2. because of the lack of (1) for decades, fonts have been tweaked to compensate, so sometimes srgb is better [3] [4]

Do you have advice on linear vs srgb space antialiasing?

[1] https://www.puredevsoftware.com/blog/2019/01/22/sub-pixel-ga...

[2] http://hikogui.org/2022/10/24/the-trouble-with-anti-aliasing...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12023985

[4] http://hikogui.org/2022/10/24/the-trouble-with-anti-aliasing...

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8. enbugger ◴[] No.42195398[source]
As a non-gamedev person but just gamer, I should expect that this will replace TAA anytime soon? Should it replace TAA?
replies(1): >>42200211 #
9. Lerc ◴[] No.42196248[source]
How long did this take to write?

I have done a few live visualization based blog posts, and they take me ages to do. I kind of think that's the right idea though. There is so much content out there, taking longer to produce less content at a higher quality benefits everyone.

replies(1): >>42200212 #
10. tobr ◴[] No.42196427[source]
Great write up, excellent explorables. I skimmed some parts so forgive me if this was covered, but I wonder what happens with overlapping shapes in this approach. For example, a white background with a black disc and then a white disc of the exact same size and position would probably leave a fuzzy gray hairline circle? With regular antialiasing it should be all white.
replies(1): >>42200488 #
11. vanderZwan ◴[] No.42196783[source]
One small bit of tecnical feedback for the website itself: it would be nice if the links in the article open in a new tab by default, because reloading the webpage via the back button is a little broken on my mobile browsers. I suspect it has something to do with trying to restore the state of the page while also having WebGL contexts.
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12. meta-level ◴[] No.42197142[source]
Can you elaborate a bit on the tech-stack used for this blog? I didn't find any hints in the source (but I'm not an expert). Is it some known framework? What does the input look like (Markdown etc).?
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13. aappleby ◴[] No.42197506[source]
Google Maps uses AAA on capsule shapes for all road segments - I wrote it ~10 years ago. :D
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14. Cieric ◴[] No.42197576[source]
Not the parent, but seems this is the source code for the blog. https://github.com/FrostKiwi/treasurechest

Found it by going to the comments since the comments are GitHub issues the "x comment" is a link to the issues page.

15. delusional ◴[] No.42197877[source]
Neat. Does that mean that every road segment is a separate mesh?
replies(1): >>42199001 #
16. mastax ◴[] No.42197952[source]
I’m definitely seeing similar artifacts when at 2x on an iPhone 15 Pro.
replies(1): >>42198937 #
17. tomrod ◴[] No.42198224[source]
I would love to connect on some ideas around using antialiasing as a way to extend inference in extracting information from computer vision outputs.
18. zadler ◴[] No.42198810[source]
Massive thanks for this! I’m already using my own version of analytical antialiasing but there were some bits I couldn’t get quite right so this is perfect!
19. ferbivore ◴[] No.42198937{3}[source]
Through Metal or in a web browser? Apple's docs say it's supposed to use the standard 0.75/0.25 sample positions with 2x MSAA: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/mtldevice/28...
replies(1): >>42199998 #
20. aappleby ◴[] No.42199001{3}[source]
Depends on what you mean by "mesh". Each road segment is an instanced rectangle that gets extruded and beveled so that it fits tightly against adjacent segments, and then the pixels are shaded using AAA (with a capsule-shaped distance field) so that the result looks like an antialiased wide line with round end caps and joints.
replies(1): >>42200557 #
21. mastax ◴[] No.42199998{4}[source]
Viewing the article in Safari.
22. Arelius ◴[] No.42200211[source]
Basically no... Analytic AA is a really hard problem for video games, and I know of no general purpose solutions.

For font and 2D vector rendering it's likely, in fact afaik, some solutions, such as Slug already do.

But for 3d rendering I don't know of any solutions.

For an intuition, consider two triangles that intersect the same pixel.

Consider if say one has 20% coverage and the other 30%, does that pixel have 50% coverage, 30% by one, 20% by one and 10% by another, or any other conceivable mix? It's very difficult to say without selecting specific points and sampling directly.

23. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200212[source]
The commit history [1] reveals that, took a while. I don't write professionally, something I do in lunch breaks from time to time. Thanks for the kind words.

[1] https://github.com/FrostKiwi/treasurechest/commits/main/post...

24. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200229[source]
Ohh right! I'm sure the must be an Eleventy setting for that...
25. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200281[source]
True, this is something I struggled with writing and ended up with just a small note commenting that this is not widely applicable. Will clarify more in coming posts. It's all incredibly context specific. The reason for this order, is that you can very much can use all these approaches (SSAA, FXAA, MSAA etc.) for rendering simpler shapes and HUDs. So going through them, where these approaches break down and when it does make sense to go the extra mile with SDFs.

Still, non-standard rendering approaches are very much a thing [1] and I could see setups like [2] be used in scientific particle visualizations.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U0XVdvQwAI

[2] https://bgolus.medium.com/rendering-a-sphere-on-a-quad-13c92...

26. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200305[source]
The blog is built with eleventy https://www.11ty.dev/ and as the previous reply already mentioned, the source code is on GitHub [2]. All posts are single Markdown file each with HTML inserted where I need it. The javascript for the demos is custom and changes from post to post. The basic style comes from Sakura CSS [3] with a bunch of custom stuff on top.

[1] https://www.11ty.dev/

[2] https://github.com/FrostKiwi/treasurechest

[3] https://github.com/oxalorg/sakura

27. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200340[source]
Yes, that also surprised me and I tested it on multiple mobile Apple devices. It's not really a mistake per se, the implementation is free to do what it wants. Selecting MSAAx2 on these types of mobile GPUs simply has no upside and isn't really supported over MSAAx4 and I guess apple still wanted to make the choice somehow possible, as opposed to Android, where there is only an illusion of choice.

It's just so happens to produce visible artifacts in this case. I suppose for 3D scenes it's mostly fine.

28. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200488[source]
What happens during overlap, is something you control fully, at every step. (Except when using this with MSAA, as that is implementation defined) How intersections happen when blending shapes of multiple draw calls or multiple quads is defined by the blending function you set before issuing the draw call. In WebGL the call is blendFunc() [1] and there are a bunch of options.

How to blend multiple shapes on the same quad, within a draw call is shown in the section "Drawing multiple?". There you fully control the intersection with the blending math.

Finally, there is always the gamma question, which is true for all AA solutions. This is not covered in the post, but that might mess with the results, as is true for any kind of blending.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebGLRender...

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29. david-gpu ◴[] No.42200557{4}[source]
This brought back some memories. Long ago I had to do some AAA for line rendering on some hardware that didn't support line AA natively.

A big customer was furious that they had bought a part that didn't perform the way they wanted, so I was voluntold to fix it.

I was given a ridiculous timeframe to come up with a solution and present them to our customer in a big in-person meeting with all the decision makers. I managed to implement three different alternatives so that the customer would feel they had some agency selecting the one they liked the most. The best looking by far was a form of AAA.

This was one out of several of these big last minute fires I was assigned to solve. Years later my manager told me how great it was knowing that the could throw any crap at me and I would be able to fix it in time.

However, these sort of experiences are why I struggled with burnout during my career, which led me to save like crazy to retire as early as possible, which I did.

For younglings out there: when they ask you to do the impossible, remember that failure IS an option. Push back if you think they are asking you for something unreasonable.

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30. FrostKiwi ◴[] No.42200595[source]
> Do you have advice on linear vs srgb space antialiasing?

Unfortunately, this is completely context dependent. One central point is, whether or not the graphics pipeline is instructed to perform corrections (GL_FRAMEBUFFER_SRGB in OpenGL), as that changes the answer. Another point is, in which context blending is performed. Luckily the developer has full freedom here and can even specify separate blending for alpha and color [1], something that GPU accelerated terminal emulator Alacritty makes use of [2], though it doesn't do MSDF rendering.

One thing I can say though: The alpha, the fading of edge, has to be linear at the end or perceived as such. Or rather if the edge were to be stretched to 10 pixels, each pixel has to be a 0.1 alpha step. (If smoothstep is used, the alpha has to follow that curve at the end) Otherwise the Anti-Aliasing will be strongly diminished. This is something you can always verify at the end. Correct blending of colors is of course a headache and context specific.

> fonts have been tweaked to compensate, so sometimes srgb is better

This should not concern MSDF rendering. These tweaks happened at specific resolutions with monitors popular at that time. Especially when considering HiDPI modes of modern window systems, all bets are off, DPI scaling completely overthrows any of that. MSDF is size independent and the "tweaks" are mainly thickness adjustments, which MSDF has control over. So if the font doesn't match as it looks in another rendering type, MSDF can correct for it.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebGLRender...

[2] https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aalacritty%2Falacritty+ble...

31. rglynn ◴[] No.42201084{5}[source]
Great story and useful lesson, thanks for sharing.

Also, going to add "voluntold" to my lexicon :D

32. edflsafoiewq ◴[] No.42201393{3}[source]
I think the point is that a correct analytical result needs to be computed for all shapes at once. You can't composite overlapping shapes individually, since the alpha value (subpixel coverage), even if analytically correct, is lossy; you lose the information about the exact subpixel geometry, which is needed to do correct compositing (eg. does this shape completely occlude this other one within this pixel?). The standard Porter-Duff blend function assumes the subpixel geometry is a uniform random mist, which is not necessarily a great assumption for AA.
33. Voultapher ◴[] No.42202062[source]
Thank you for the excellent writeup, terrific work!

> Whole communities rally around fixing this, like the reddit communities “r/MotionClarity” or the lovingly titled “r/FuckTAA”, all with the understanding, that Anti-Aliasing should not come at the cost of clarity. FXAA creator Timothy Lottes mentioned, that this is solvable to some degree with adjustments to filtering, though even the most modern titles suffer from this.

I certainly agree that the current trend of relying on upscalers has gone too far and results in blurry and artifact riddled AAA game experiences for many. But after seeing this [1] deep dive by Digital foundry I find the arguments he makes quite compelling. There is a level of motion stability and clarity only tech like DLSS can achieve, even outperforming SSAA. So I've shifted my stance from TAA == blurry, TAA + ML when used right == best AA possible currently for 3D games.

Thoughts?

[1] https://youtu.be/WG8w9Yg5B3g