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    36 points hhs | 20 comments | | HN request time: 0.59s | source | bottom
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    alsetmusic ◴[] No.42070992[source]
    I worked at a liquor store when I was 21 and lived in a midwestern bible-belt state. We had flyers at the counter educating customers to vote against a raise of sin-taxes (alcohol, tobacco, possibly adult material, I don't recall) to offset a budget deficit (specifically upkeep of roads and highways).

    It's not right for my vices to pay for your infrastructure. Tax tobacco to fund cancer research. Tax alcohol to advance treatment of liver disease. Tax porn to fund, I dunno, therapy for people who can't view it in moderation.

    On a similar note, I do NOT have a problem with paying for schools even though I don't have kids. It raises property values and that's a benefit to me and everyone in the district. Plus, educating young people benefits society as a whole. I'm not some "don't tax me" guy because taxes are good. They just should be limited and targeted and not levied unfairly against those with bad habits for the benefit / relief of all.

    That said, I apologize for quitting drinking. Research into treating cirrhosis of the liver will have to take a moderate hit and that's my fault. /s but only sorta

    replies(5): >>42071023 #>>42071118 #>>42071334 #>>42071358 #>>42071396 #
    1. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.42071023[source]
    Fuel taxes should be raised to pay for road infrastructure. Align the incentives so that people can make good decisions about whether to drive or not. And shippers can make better decisions about whether to ship via rail, ship, or truck.
    replies(6): >>42071048 #>>42071082 #>>42071175 #>>42071317 #>>42071320 #>>42071392 #
    2. presentation ◴[] No.42071048[source]
    IMO money is fungible and specifically locking in a tax to fund a specific thing seems like a good way to make the funding available for that thing volatile unless it’s so expensive that no matter what the tax pulls in it will never be enough. I doubt people would actually adjust their fuel consumption to the ideal balance between personal utility and road infrastructure funding.
    replies(2): >>42071232 #>>42072798 #
    3. Terr_ ◴[] No.42071082[source]
    > Fuel taxes should be raised to pay for road infrastructure.

    Unfortunately there's a looming issue there: "Hydrocarbons used" stops being a valid proxy for "how much you use the road" as more cars are hybrids or all-electric.

    That said, those taxes did have a nice property of being imprecise enough that individual privacy was protected. I often point out to certain folks--the ones who complain that "big gubmint makes me pay for stuff I don't use"--that getting their wish means giving that same government constant and intimate knowledge of their movements and habits.

    Somewhere in the middle might be a tax based on periodic odometer readings.

    4. mperham ◴[] No.42071175[source]
    EVs are breaking this funding model.

    I'd suggest curbside parking should be charged everywhere. Free omnipresent parking is what has hollowed out American cities. Car storage is an awful use of public space.

    replies(3): >>42071251 #>>42071300 #>>42071780 #
    5. zie ◴[] No.42071232[source]
    It's very easy to stop funding X from the general fund and using the specific allocated money, so the overall spend on X doesn't increase at all, it's just the money now comes from the special tax, instead of the general fund.

    The general fund money can then be spent on whatever again, say the mayor's sin habit ;)

    replies(1): >>42071559 #
    6. gorkish ◴[] No.42071251[source]
    You are woefully incorrect. in most places EV's road taxes are massively disproportionate to the amount of road tax an ICE vehicle would pay.

    Here in Texas, I would ordinarily pay about $30/year in road taxes on gasoline driving a 30mpg vehicle 12,000/mi anually.

    But I have an EV instead so instead I pay:

    $500 in surcharge for the first year of registration and $200 surcharge for every year thereafter.

    Oh whoops I misspoke; I actually have 3 EVs so despite being one person, I pay approximately 25x more road tax than the average driver here.

    I'm not necessarily complaining about the /amount/ of tax but the simple fact that it is both disproportionately applied and far too low overall. The state should charge based on actual mileage, but since they just eliminated state inspections, good luck with that. Second best alternative is to make it a flat surcharge for all.

    replies(1): >>42071458 #
    7. cogman10 ◴[] No.42071300[source]
    Not yet. The biggest road destroyers are heavy vehicles which are all still fossil fuel powered.

    The only part of the problem broken is that EV owners are no longer subsidizing the damage done by walmart to a road.

    Raising fuel taxes is a win-win for everyone. It makes EVs more attractive and shipping garbage more expensive. It's an effective way to directly impact CO2 emissions.

    replies(1): >>42071541 #
    8. yndoendo ◴[] No.42071317[source]
    I don't see a fuel tax being a vice tax since I must drive to work and the stores. I want to drive as little as possible.

    Use-taxes are just to push from the collective to the average person. Instead of having companies like Amazon fit the bill for all the road damage they produce, from their delivers to their supply chains, they push it others. Rather have those companies pay their fare share and reduce the cost of fuel for the average person.

    Politics play a big role in alternative transportation set backs. I would travel more if there were bullet trains between large cities. Don't like driving nor flying nor bus. There is push against alternative transportation by both the car industry and oil industry. Political donations by these help remove the chance of high-speed rail. Even though it would improve national security and service economy.

    9. mjevans ◴[] No.42071320[source]
    Road infrastructure IS civic infrastructure. It has to exist, it has to be paid for; and you'll pay for it one way or another. Any tax passed on, even indirectly, to consumers is a REGRESSIVE tax. That is, it more proportionately effects those who have no choice, who must drive, must buy food, and pay a larger percentage of their net worth / yearly gain in net worth to do those things.

    Fuel taxes all funnel on to the poor the most and the middle-income as well. Who benefits from such infrastructure taxes? The rich. They still have to pay something, but far less than their share of wealth as generated by society as a whole.

    replies(1): >>42071537 #
    10. nkrisc ◴[] No.42071392[source]
    Higher fuel taxes just make things harder for those who have to drive to minimum wage jobs on the other side of town because that’s the only job they can get (or one of two or three they have to work). People with far higher paying jobs (probably many people reading here) could likely choose to just work from home or just pay it since it’s a far less significant proportion of their income. The rich get richer.
    replies(1): >>42072292 #
    11. JasserInicide ◴[] No.42071458{3}[source]
    I pay approximately 25x more road tax than the average driver here.

    But you're not, it's to make up for the revenue TX would get from you via the gas tax. Also EVs are heavier on average therefore do more damage to the road so paying for that too.

    replies(1): >>42072218 #
    12. makeitdouble ◴[] No.42071537[source]
    Shout out to the 99pi.org podcast currently going through a "The Power Broker" run chapter by chapter. Anyone fascinated by roads, where the money goes, and how they can be/are abused is in for a treat.

    https://99percentinvisible.org/club/

    Roads definitely have a wide impact on communities, and who pays for them is usually critical.

    13. dgfitz ◴[] No.42071541{3}[source]
    > The biggest road destroyers are heavy vehicles which are all still fossil fuel powered.

    How does EV trucking solve weight?

    It doesn’t, batteries are heavy.

    Edit: are batteries not heavy?

    replies(1): >>42072081 #
    14. dgfitz ◴[] No.42071559{3}[source]
    > It's very easy to stop funding X from the general fund

    Yeah it only takes a cliche called: an act of congress

    15. dv_dt ◴[] No.42071780[source]
    Cargo trucks already break this model because damage in roads increases with the cube of weight and diesel taxes are nowhere near a power of three larger than gas taxes
    replies(1): >>42072595 #
    16. plorkyeran ◴[] No.42072081{4}[source]
    Nothing in the post you're responding to suggests that EV trucking would solve weight. If EV trucking did become common then the model of funding road infrastructure with fuel taxes would stop working, but that hasn't actually happened yet.
    17. Brian_K_White ◴[] No.42072218{4}[source]
    And rubber dust.
    18. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.42072292[source]
    So give a rebate to poor people. Instead we are subsidizing everybody who drives, rich or poor.
    19. mysterydip ◴[] No.42072595{3}[source]
    Not disagreeing, but if diesel tax is per gallon and cargo trucks have a worse mpg (looks like 7.2 is considered the average?) then they are paying more per mile in tax, possibly 2-4x more than a car (15-30 mpg)
    20. creer ◴[] No.42072798[source]
    The problem is how to get voters to approve your tax change. It's easy if you can split the voters. That is, blame X of them and tax them, which the rest and a few good souls will happily support. Otherwise you are back to suggesting a falt tax increase which very few will support - until you exempt much of the population, etc, etc.