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410 points jjulius | 71 comments | | HN request time: 1.038s | source | bottom
1. massysett ◴[] No.41885131[source]
"Tesla says on its website its FSD software in on-road vehicles requires active driver supervision and does not make vehicles autonomous."

Despite it being called "Full Self-Driving."

Tesla should be sued out of existence.

replies(9): >>41885238 #>>41885239 #>>41885242 #>>41885290 #>>41885322 #>>41885351 #>>41885429 #>>41885656 #>>41893664 #
2. bagels ◴[] No.41885238[source]
It didn't always say that. It used to be more misleading, and claim that the cars have "Full Self Driving Hardware", with an exercise for the reader to deduce that it didn't come with "Full Self Driving Software" too.
replies(1): >>41885546 #
3. fhdsgbbcaA ◴[] No.41885242[source]
“Sixty percent of the time, it works every time”
4. vineyardmike ◴[] No.41885255[source]
Magic isn’t real. No one should be confused that the eraser isn’t magic.

Fully self driving cars are real. Just not made by Tesla.

replies(1): >>41885300 #
5. jazzyjackson ◴[] No.41885259[source]
Have you used one? They basically do what they say, at least, which is erase things.
6. BolexNOLA ◴[] No.41885298[source]
Nobody who buys a magic eraser thinks it’s literally a magical object or in any way utilizes magic. It’s not comparable.
replies(2): >>41885575 #>>41887790 #
7. mbernstein ◴[] No.41885299[source]
Nuclear power adoption is the largest force to combat climate change.
replies(3): >>41885358 #>>41885366 #>>41885469 #
8. bqmjjx0kac ◴[] No.41885300{3}[source]
What's the verdict on X-Ray Specs?
replies(2): >>41885426 #>>41885847 #
9. ivewonyoung ◴[] No.41885358{3}[source]
Are you proposing that cars should have nuclear reactors in them?

Teslas run great on nuclear power, unlike fossil fuel ICE cars.

replies(1): >>41885413 #
10. Retric ◴[] No.41885366{3}[source]
Historically, hydro has prevented for more CO2 than nuclear by a wide margin. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-prod-source-s...

Looking forward Nuclear isn’t moving the needle. Solar grew more in 2023 alone than nuclear has grown since 1995. Worse nuclear can’t ramp up significantly in the next decade simply due to construction bottlenecks. 40 years ago nuclear could have played a larger role, but we wasted that opportunity.

It’s been helpful, but suggesting it’s going to play a larger role anytime soon is seriously wishful thinking at this point.

replies(4): >>41885405 #>>41885435 #>>41885448 #>>41894615 #
11. UltraSane ◴[] No.41885395[source]
Tesla's BS with FSD is as bad as Theranos was with their blood tests.
12. mikeweiss ◴[] No.41885400[source]
I think you mean fortunately?
replies(1): >>41886161 #
13. UltraSane ◴[] No.41885405{4}[source]
That just goes to show how incredibly short sighted humanity is. We new about the risk of massive CO2 emissions from burning fossil fuels but just ignored it while irrationally demonizing nuclear energy because it is scawy. If humans were sane and able to plan earth would be getting 100% of all electricity from super-efficient 7th generation nuclear reactors.
replies(3): >>41885453 #>>41885494 #>>41886182 #
14. mbernstein ◴[] No.41885413{4}[source]
Of course not.
replies(2): >>41885451 #>>41885588 #
15. largbae ◴[] No.41885426{4}[source]
I think everyone just gave up and went to pornhub
16. hedora ◴[] No.41885429[source]
Our non-Tesla has steering assist. In my 500 miles of driving before I found the buried setting that let me completely disable it, the active safety systems never made it more than 10-20 miles without attempting to actively steer the car left-of-center or into another vehicle, even when it was "turned off" via the steering wheel controls.

When it was turned on according to the dashboard UI, things were even worse. It'd disengage less than every ten miles. However, there wasn't an alarm when it disengaged, just a tiny gray blinking icon on the dash. A second or so after the blinking, it'd beep once and then pull crap like attempt a sharp left on an exit ramp that curved to the right.

I can't imagine this model kills fewer people per mile than Tesla FSD.

I think there should be a recall, but it should hit pretty much all manufacturers shipping stuff in this space.

replies(4): >>41885522 #>>41885534 #>>41885730 #>>41886113 #
17. mbernstein ◴[] No.41885435{4}[source]
History is a great reference, but it doesn't solve our problems now. Just because hydro has prevented more CO2 until now doesn't mean that plus solar are the combination that delivers abundant, clean energy. There are power storage challenges and storage mechanisms aren't carbon neutral. Even if we assume that nuclear, wind, and solar (without storage) all have the same carbon footprint - I believe nuclear is less that solar pretty much equivalent to wind - you have to add the storage mechanisms for scenarios where there's no wind, sun, or water.

All of the above are significantly better than burning gas or coal - but nuclear is the clear winner from an CO2 and general availability perspective.

replies(1): >>41885536 #
18. dylan604 ◴[] No.41885448{4}[source]
> Historically, hydro has

done harm to the ecosystems where they are installed. This is quite often overlooked and brushed aside.

There is no single method of generating electricity without downsides.

replies(1): >>41885545 #
19. dylan604 ◴[] No.41885451{5}[source]
Why not? We just need to use Mr Fusion in everything

https://backtothefuture.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Fusion

20. mbernstein ◴[] No.41885453{5}[source]
When talking to my parents, I hear a lot about Jane Fonda and the China Syndrome as far as the fears of nuclear power.

She's made the same baseless argument for a long time: "Nuclear power is slow, expensive — and wildly dangerous"

https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy#:~:text=The%20key%....

CO2 issues aside, it's just outright safer than all forms of coal and gas and about as safe as solar and wind, all three of which are a bit safer than hydro (still very safe).

replies(2): >>41885563 #>>41895117 #
21. porphyra ◴[] No.41885469{3}[source]
I think solar is a lot cheaper than nuclear, even if you factor in battery storage.
22. Retric ◴[] No.41885494{5}[source]
I agree costs could have dropped significantly, but I doubt 100% nuclear was ever going to happen.

Large scale dams will exist to store water, tacking hydroelectric on top of them is incredibly cost effective. Safety wise dams are seriously dangerous, but they also save a shocking number of lives by reducing flooding.

23. shepherdjerred ◴[] No.41885522[source]
My Hyundai has a similar feature and it's excellent. I don't think you should be painting with such a broad brush.
24. noapologies ◴[] No.41885534[source]
I'm not sure how any of this is related to the article. Does this non-Tesla manufacturer claim that their steering assist is "full self driving"?

If you believe their steering assist kills more people than Tesla FSD then you're welcome, encouraged even, to file a report with the NHTSA here [1].

[1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem

25. Retric ◴[] No.41885536{5}[source]
Seriously scaling nuclear would involve batteries. Nuclear has issues being cost effective at 80+% capacity factors. When you start talking sub 40% capacity factors the cost per kWh spirals.

The full cost of operating a multiple nuclear reactor for just 5 hours per day just costs more than a power plant at 80% capacity factor charging batteries.

replies(1): >>41885579 #
26. Retric ◴[] No.41885545{5}[source]
We’ve made dams long before we knew about electricity. At which point tacking hydropower to a dam that would exist either way has basically zero environmental impact.

Pure hydropower dams definitely do have significant environmental impact.

replies(1): >>41889861 #
27. peutetre ◴[] No.41885546[source]
And Musk doesn't want to "get nuanced" about the hardware:

https://electrek.co/2024/10/15/tesla-needs-to-come-clean-abo...

28. ◴[] No.41885563{6}[source]
29. kyriakos ◴[] No.41885575{3}[source]
Even if at least it won't kill you or anyone around you for using it.
30. mbernstein ◴[] No.41885579{6}[source]
> Seriously scaling nuclear would involve batteries. Nuclear has issues being cost effective at 80+% capacity factors.

I assume you mean that sub 80% capacity nuclear has issues being cost effective (which I agree is true).

You could pair the baseload nuclear with renewables during peak times and reduce battery dependency for scaling and maintaining higher utilization.

replies(1): >>41885648 #
31. ivewonyoung ◴[] No.41885588{5}[source]
In a world where nuclear power helped with climate change, would also be a world where Teslas would eliminate a good chunk of harmful pollution by allowing cars to be moved by nuclear, so not sure what point you were trying to make.

Even at this minute, Teslas are moving around powered by nuclear power.

32. Retric ◴[] No.41885648{7}[source]
I meant even if you’re operating nuclear as baseload power looking forward the market rate for electricity looks rough without significant subsidies.

Daytime you’re facing solar head to head which is already dropping wholesale rates. Off peak is mostly users seeking cheap electricity so demand at 2AM is going to fall if power ends up cheaper at noon. Which means nuclear needs to make most of its money from the duck curve price peaks. But batteries are driving down peak prices.

Actually cheap nuclear would make this far easier, but there’s no obvious silver bullet.

33. m463 ◴[] No.41885656[source]
I believe it's called "Full Self Driving (Supervised)"
replies(2): >>41886156 #>>41894353 #
34. gamblor956 ◴[] No.41885730[source]
If what you say is true, name the car model and file a report with the NHTSA.
35. gamblor956 ◴[] No.41885742[source]
Every year Musk personally flies enough in his private jet to undo the emissions savings of over 100,000 EVs...

Remember that every time you get in your Tesla that you're just a carbon offset for a spoiled billionaire.

replies(2): >>41885793 #>>41886190 #
36. enslavedrobot ◴[] No.41885793{3}[source]
Hmmmm average car uses 489 gallons a year. Large private jet uses 500 gallons an hour. There are 9125 hours in a year.

So if Elon lives in a jet that flys 24/7 you're only very wrong. Since that's obviously not the case you're colossally and completely wrong.

Remember that the next time you try to make an argument that Tesla is not an incredible force for decarbonization.

replies(2): >>41886772 #>>41894302 #
37. HeadsUpHigh ◴[] No.41886113[source]
Ive had similar experience with a Hyundai with steering assist. It would get confused by messed road lining all the time. Meanwhile it had no problem climbing a road curb that was unmarked. And it would try to constantly nudge the steering wheel meaning I had to put force into holding it in place all the time since it which was extra fatigue.

Oh and it was on by default, meaning I had to disable it every time I turned the car on.

replies(1): >>41890921 #
38. maeil ◴[] No.41886156[source]
The part in parentheses has only recently been added.
replies(2): >>41887897 #>>41889157 #
39. valval ◴[] No.41886161{3}[source]
Unfortunately for them and their ideological allies, fortunately for people with common sense.
40. maeil ◴[] No.41886167[source]
This was a lawsuit by shareholders, and the judge thought investors should know whatever Elon says is bullshit.

Completely different from e.g. consumers, of whom less such understanding is expected.

41. valval ◴[] No.41886182{5}[source]
There was adequate evidence that nuclear is capable of killing millions of people and causing large scale environmental issues.

It’s still not clear today what effect CO2 or fossil fuel usage has on us.

replies(1): >>41891396 #
42. valval ◴[] No.41886190{3}[source]
As opposed to all the other execs whose companies aren’t a force to combat climate change and still fly their private jets.

But don’t get me wrong, anyone and everyone can fly their private jets if they can afford such things. They will already have generated enough taxes at that point that they’re offsetting thousands or millions of Prius drivers.

replies(1): >>41891251 #
43. briansm ◴[] No.41886772{4}[source]
I think you missed the 'EV' part of the post.
44. fallingknife ◴[] No.41887790{3}[source]
Just like nobody who buys FSD actually thinks it's really self driving.
replies(1): >>41890868 #
45. rsynnott ◴[] No.41887897{3}[source]
And is, well, entirely contradictory. An absolute absurdity; what happens when the irresistible force of the legal department meets the immovable object of marketing.
46. rsynnott ◴[] No.41887909[source]
It’s really unfortunate that puffery survived as a common law defence. It’s really from an earlier era, when fraud was far more acceptable and people were more conditioned to assume that vendors were outright lying to them; it has no place in modern society.

Also, that’s investors, not consumers. While the rise of retail investing has made this kind of dubious, investors are generally assumed to be far less in need of protection than consumers by the law; it is assumed that they take care about their investment that a consumer couldn’t reasonably take around every single product that they buy.

47. gitaarik ◴[] No.41888799[source]
As I understand, electric cars are more polluting than non-electric, because first of all manufacturing and resources footprint is larger, but also because they are heavier (because of the batteries), the tires wear down much faster, needing more tire replacement, which is so significantly much that their emission free-ness doesn't compensate for it.

Besides, electric vehicles still seem to be very impractical compared to normal cars, because they can't drive very far without needing a lengthy recharge.

So I think the eco-friendliness of electric vehicles is maybe like the full self-driving system: nice promises but no delivery.

replies(2): >>41889911 #>>41891411 #
48. tharant ◴[] No.41889157{3}[source]
Prior to that, FSD was labeled ‘Full Self Driving (Beta)’ and enabling it triggered a modal that required two confirmations explaining that the human driver must always pay attention and is ultimately responsible for the vehicle. The feature also had/has active driver monitoring (via both vision and steering-torque sensors) that would disengage FSD if the driver ignored the loud audible alarm to “Pay attention”. Since changing the label to ‘(Supervised)’, the audible nag is significantly reduced.
replies(2): >>41894365 #>>41895640 #
49. dylan604 ◴[] No.41889861{6}[source]
I just don't get the premise of your argument. Are you honestly saying that stopping the normal flow of water has no negative impact on the ecosystem? What about the area behind the dam that is now flooded? What about the area in front of the dam where there is now no way to traverse back up stream?

Maybe your just okay and willing to accept that kind of change. That's fine, just as some people are okay with the risk of nuclear, the use of land for solar/wind. But to just flat out deny that it has impact is just dishonest discourse at best

replies(2): >>41890678 #>>41895104 #
50. theyinwhy ◴[] No.41889911{3}[source]
That has been falsified by more studies than I can keep track of. And yes, if you charge your electric with electricity produced by oil, the climate effect will be non-optimal.
51. Retric ◴[] No.41890678{7}[source]
It’s the same premise as rooftop solar. You’re building a home anyway so adding solar panels to the roof isn’t destroying pristine habitat.

People build dams for many reasons not just electricity.

Having a reserve of rainwater is a big deal in California, Texas, etc. Letting millions of cubic meters more water flow into the ocean would make the water problems much worse in much of the world. Flood control is similarly a serious concern. Blaming 100% of the issues from dams on Hydropower is silly if outlawing hydropower isn’t going to remove those dams.

52. BolexNOLA ◴[] No.41890868{4}[source]
Surely you can understand why “magic” and “fully self driving” have different levels of plausibility?

In 2024 if you tell me a car is “fully self driving” it’s pretty reasonable of me to think it’s a fully self driving car given the current state of vehicle technology. They didn’t say “magic steering” or something clearly ridiculous to take at face value. It sounds like what it should be able to do. Especially with “full” in the name. Just call it “assisted driving” or hell “self driving.” The inclusion of “fully” makes this impossible to debate in good faith.

53. shepherdjerred ◴[] No.41890921{3}[source]
What model year? I'm guessing it's an older one?

My Hyundai is a 2021 and I have to turn on the steering assist every time which I find annoying. My guess is that you had an earlier model where the steering assist was more liability than asset.

It's understandable that earlier versions of this kind of thing wouldn't function as well, but it is very strange that they would have it on by default.

replies(1): >>41901288 #
54. gamblor956 ◴[] No.41891251{4}[source]
As opposed to all the other execs

Yes, actually.

Other execs fly as needed because they recognize that in this wondrous age of the internet that teleconferencing can replace most in-person meetings. Somehow, only a supposed technology genius like Elon Musk thinks that in-person meetings required for everything.

Other execs also don't claim to be trying to save the planet while doing everything in their power to exploit its resources or destroy natural habitats.

55. UltraSane ◴[] No.41891396{6}[source]
Nuclear reactors are not nuclear bombs. Nuclear reactors are very safe on a Joules per death bases
56. djaychela ◴[] No.41891411{3}[source]
Pretty much everything you've said here isn't true. You are just repeating tropes that are fossil fuel industry FUD.
57. innocentoldguy ◴[] No.41893664[source]
It's called "Full Self-Driving (Supervised) Beta" and you agree that you understand that you have to pay attention and are responsible for the safety of the car before you turn it on.
replies(2): >>41894493 #>>41895643 #
58. roca ◴[] No.41894302{4}[source]
Not Tesla exactly, but Musk has gone all-in trying to get a man elected to be US President who consistently says climate change is a hoax, or words to that effect.
replies(1): >>41897745 #
59. tsimionescu ◴[] No.41894353[source]
The correct name would be "Not Self Driving". Or, at least, Partial Self Driving.
60. tsimionescu ◴[] No.41894365{4}[source]
The problem is not so much the lack of disclaimers, it is the adberitising. Tesla is asking for something like 15 000 dollars for access to this "beta", and you don't get two modal dialogs before you sign up for that.

This is called "false advertising", and even worse - recognizing revenue on a feature you are not delivering (a beta is not a delivered feature) is not GAAP.

61. kelnos ◴[] No.41894493[source]
So the name of it is a contradiction, and the fine print contradicts the name. "Full self driving" (the concept, not the Tesla product) does not need to be supervised.
62. masklinn ◴[] No.41894615{4}[source]
> Historically, hydro has prevented for more CO2 than nuclear by a wide margin.

Hydro is not evenly distributed and mostly tapped out outside of a few exceptions. Hydro literally can not solve the issue.

Even less so as AGW starts running meltwater sources dry.

replies(1): >>41894677 #
63. Retric ◴[] No.41894677{5}[source]
I wasn’t imply it would, just covering the very short term.

Annual production from nuclear is getting passed by wind in 2025 and possibly 2024. So just this second it’s possibly #1 among wind, solar and nuclear but they are all well behind hydro.

64. chgs ◴[] No.41895104{7}[source]
You are asserting building a dam has downsides. That’s correct (there are upsides too - flood control, fresh water storage etc)

However you are conflating dam building with hydro generation.

65. chgs ◴[] No.41895117{6}[source]
She’s two thirds right. It’s slow and expensive.
replies(1): >>41896935 #
66. rty32 ◴[] No.41895640{4}[source]
Do they have warnings as big as "full self driving" texts in advertisements? And if it is NOT actually full self driving, why call it full self driving?

That's just false advertising. You can't get around that.

I can't believe our current laws let Tesla get away like that.

67. rty32 ◴[] No.41895643[source]
Come on, you know it's an oxymoron. "full" and "supervised" don't belong to the same sentence. Ask any 10 year old or a non native English speaker who only learned the language from textbooks for 5 years can tell you that. Just... stop defending Tesla.
replies(1): >>41910569 #
68. enslavedrobot ◴[] No.41897745{5}[source]
US oil production under the current administration is at 13.5M barrels per day. The highest ever. The US is shitting the bed on the energy transition. Meanwhile global solar cell production is slated to hit 2TW/year by the end of 2025 @ under 10cents/watt. China, the land of coal, is on track to hit net zero before the US. Both parties and all levels of government have a disgraceful record on climate change.

PS: For context 2TW of solar can generate about 10% of global electricity. Production capacity will not stop at 2TW. All other forms of electricity are basically doomed, no matter what the GOP says about climate change.

replies(1): >>41902757 #
69. HeadsUpHigh ◴[] No.41901288{4}[source]
>What model year? I'm guessing it's an older one?

Not 100% sure which year since it wasn't mine I think around 2018 +-2y. It was good at following bright painted white lines and nothing else. I didn't mind the beeping and the vibration when I stepped on a line but it wanted to actively steer the wheel which was infuriating. I wouldn't mind it if it was just a suggestion.

70. roca ◴[] No.41902757{6}[source]
Both parties have a disgraceful record on climate change, but the GOP is still clearly much worse. High as US oil production is, Republicans complain that it should be higher. And Trump making the hoax claim dogma for his followers is incredibly damaging.
71. innocentoldguy ◴[] No.41910569{3}[source]
It's a name that accurately describes the ultimate goal of the technology. It's not there yet, and Tesla makes it clear that this is the case. I don't see an issue with it and it works exceptionally well as is.