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Reflections on Palantir

(nabeelqu.substack.com)
479 points freditup | 43 comments | 16 Oct 24 02:18 UTC | HN request time: 0.409s | source | bottom
1. ak_111 ◴[16 Oct 24 22:35 UTC] No.41864546[source]▶
Note that Palantir's moral stature isn't as grey or debatable as made in the article, it is basically clearly complicit in the genocide in Gaza.

In other words, if you read the article I would add one more bucket to the three categories the author provided to classify palantir's work - genocide assistance.

from https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-jd-vance-peter-thiel-f...

""" Not only did it provide information to the US military during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, but over the past 10 months in particular, Palantir has provided AI-powered military and surveillance technology support to the Israelis in its war on Gaza.

It has, in the words of Palantir's co-founder Alex Karp, been involved in "crucial operations in Israel".

Palantir says it offers defence technologies that are “mission-tested capabilities, forged in the field” to deliver “a tactical edge - by land, air, sea and space”.

These capabilities include supplying Israel’s military and intelligence agencies with the data to fire missiles at specific targets in Gaza - be it inside homes or in moving vehicles. """

replies(7): >>41864914 #>>41864998 #>>41865059 #>>41865219 #>>41865493 #>>41868070 #>>41869144 #
2. mulcahey ◴[16 Oct 24 23:24 UTC] No.41864914[source]▶
The war in Gaza is a moral gray area
replies(1): >>41865024 #
3. pphysch ◴[16 Oct 24 23:43 UTC] No.41865024[source]▶
To what extent is repeated mass-murder of civilians, total destruction of healthcare and education systems, etc. part of the "moral gray area"? That's just not a serious argument.

You can be pro-Israel without pretending to hold humanist values and so on.

replies(1): >>41865426 #
4. kevinventullo ◴[16 Oct 24 23:49 UTC] No.41865059[source]▶
Them and every American taxpayer
replies(1): >>41866432 #
5. bdjsiqoocwk ◴[16 Oct 24 23:54 UTC] No.41865098[source]▶
> Defeating Hamas is a moral imperative.

In that case what do you call the Netanyahu governament strategy of propping up Hamas?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

replies(1): >>41865228 #
6. slibhb ◴[17 Oct 24 00:19 UTC] No.41865219[source]▶
> Note that Palantir's moral stature isn't as grey or debatable as made in the article, it is basically clearly complicit in the genocide in Gaza.

That there's a genocide in Gaza is objectively debatable. In the sense that people debate it.

7. slibhb ◴[17 Oct 24 00:21 UTC] No.41865228{3}[source]▶
A mistake? The Israelis didn't understand the extent to which Hamas views itself as engaged in a holy war. They (and many others, including me) thought that Hamas would prioritize building Gaza and providing services to its people over murder/kidnapping raids.
replies(3): >>41865468 #>>41867005 #>>41868878 #
8. dralley ◴[17 Oct 24 01:00 UTC] No.41865426{3}[source]▶
If you have a military enemy that blatantly hides itself within civilian areas and builds its underground infrastructure underneath civilian infrastructure, and that military enemy kills 1200 of your citizens in an attack, that creates a fair bit of moral ambiguity.
replies(7): >>41865481 #>>41865828 #>>41868147 #>>41868261 #>>41869288 #>>41871027 #>>41871043 #
9. ◴[17 Oct 24 01:08 UTC] No.41865468{4}[source]▶
10. ks2048 ◴[17 Oct 24 01:10 UTC] No.41865481{4}[source]▶
Imagine the reaction to Palestinians blowing up a residential Israeli apartment building with hundreds of civilians inside and justifying it by saying they wanted to kill an IDF member inside.
replies(1): >>41866663 #
11. pazimzadeh ◴[17 Oct 24 02:19 UTC] No.41865828{4}[source]▶
You would start by not sending them money. Unless of course you needed a justification for your political/expansionist goals.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.14-033824/https://www.haaretz.com...

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/

Anyway, the idea of embedding military targets within civilian populations is also not exclusive to one side:

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-06-09/ty-article/.premium/does-...

Neither is the use of terror:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

https://web.archive.org/web/20121226235336/http://www.foreig...

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justifica...

https://www.thetorah.com/article/israels-incomplete-conquest...

replies(1): >>41866578 #
12. monkaiju ◴[17 Oct 24 04:31 UTC] No.41866432[source]▶
Pretty obvious difference between choosing to work towards the goals of a genocide and being threatened to pay taxes or have your property and wages seized...
13. monkaiju ◴[17 Oct 24 04:32 UTC] No.41866436[source]▶
If you think the goal of defeating Hamas justifies this amount of civilian killing yiu have no moral basis to argue with.
replies(1): >>41866569 #
14. ArtixFox ◴[17 Oct 24 05:03 UTC] No.41866569{3}[source]▶
What is the other solution?

create a separate state for palestine under the control of hamas would only legitimise them, allow them to easily get more weapons and go on another oct 7, which will again lead to the bombings currently happening.

Bombing them to death would lead to deaths of many, many women and children cuz gaza is 75% children.

You cannot have peace with hamas, only ceasefire, and even then they havnt stopped launching homemade missiles.

The most sane solution is defeating hamas, establishing a third party control over it to stabilise the region and then return it to democracy, but israel is too trigger happy to do any progress on this field and hamas wants all of israel.

You cannot have peace on the land without destroying hamas. Not even for moral reasons. Maybe there is another solution in ur mind?

replies(1): >>41868773 #
15. ArtixFox ◴[17 Oct 24 05:05 UTC] No.41866578{5}[source]▶
sooo israel should use time travel? the situation right now is a fucked up war between two bloodthirsty groups. I dont think this is the right time to think of inventing time machines...
replies(1): >>41873796 #
16. shiroiushi ◴[17 Oct 24 05:26 UTC] No.41866663{5}[source]▶
If the IDF member is shooting at them from the apartment building, then it becomes a valid military target. This is very clearly spelled out in the Geneva conventions.
replies(1): >>41868925 #
17. arczyx ◴[17 Oct 24 05:56 UTC] No.41866814[source]▶
Defeating Israel is moral imperative. There was no Hamas on 1948 but they massacre people anyway. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

> The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when Zionist paramilitaries attacked the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, Mandatory Palestine, killing at least 107 Palestinian villagers, including women and children.[1] The attack was conducted primarily by the Irgun and Lehi, who were supported by the Haganah and Palmach.[3] The massacre was carried out despite the village having agreed to a non-aggression pact.

Another example for 20 years ago (way before October 7). Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

> An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

replies(2): >>41868084 #>>41874539 #
18. bdjsiqoocwk ◴[17 Oct 24 06:40 UTC] No.41867005{4}[source]▶
That's one theory. Another one is read the article.

The reason it matters is that under the second one Israel has no moral legitimacy, so saying things like moral imperative show how fucked up your morals are.

19. pimpampum ◴[17 Oct 24 10:08 UTC] No.41868070[source]▶
This, but the author betrays itself once it says he's fine with the clear pro-western stance. As a politically informed person coming from the global south, I cannot but denounce western colonialism that lives on up to today.
20. pimpampum ◴[17 Oct 24 10:10 UTC] No.41868084{3}[source]▶
Netanyahu is a fascist inspired by Mussolini, all the Hamas talk is just an excuse to do ethnic cleansing and complete the settlement of Palestine. They will not stop at that, they will keep expanding into Syria, Lebanon and Egypt.
21. Aeolun ◴[17 Oct 24 10:18 UTC] No.41868147{4}[source]▶
I think by the time you’ve worked your way through more dead children than the entirety of your civilian casualties, I think you’ve lost all pretence at the moral high ground.
22. guappa ◴[17 Oct 24 10:40 UTC] No.41868261{4}[source]▶
> If you have a military enemy that blatantly hides itself within civilian areas

And if you don't just claim that you do anyway and keep bombing hospitals.

23. guappa ◴[17 Oct 24 10:42 UTC] No.41868269[source]▶
People complain about cancel culture but this guy can go around saying genocide is good and absolutely nothing seems to happen to him as a consequence.
24. yoz ◴[17 Oct 24 11:54 UTC] No.41868773{4}[source]▶
My solution, if I was in charge of Israel, would simply be to NOT order the army to destroy most of Gaza and kill tens of thousands of people, and to instead just focus on preventing incursions into Israel. I would also focus on stopping Hamas missiles by using the hugely effective anti-missile system that, conveniently, already exists.

I realise that this is not a perfect solution to the Israel/Palestine problem. It has many flaws in the long term and ignores a bunch of pressing issues. But it does have the benefit of not killing tens of thousands of people, and in that way is a hell of a lot better than the bloodthirsty rampage currently happening.

replies(2): >>41870517 #>>41870857 #
25. yoz ◴[17 Oct 24 12:09 UTC] No.41868878{4}[source]▶
You're underestimating how valuable Hamas has been to the Israeli right. Smotrich called them an asset in 2015 for a reason, and Netanyahu said similar in 2012.

With Hamas in charge, Israel could avoid making new peace agreements or concessions by saying that there was "no partner for peace". The more violent Hamas got, the more cover Israel had for expanding settlements. And now Likud is already talking about what they'll do with all the Gaza land they're taking.

26. ndheebebe ◴[17 Oct 24 12:16 UTC] No.41868925{6}[source]▶
This is a tenuous hypothetical.
27. nova22033 ◴[17 Oct 24 12:45 UTC] No.41869144[source]▶
Not only did it provide information to the US military

Palantir can not provide information. They can give you insights into your data. They're like splunk..and equally expensive.

28. kombine ◴[17 Oct 24 13:04 UTC] No.41869288{4}[source]▶
Do you know where the ministry of defense is located in Tel-Aviv? Right next to its biggest shopping mall, inside of which at any point you will find dozens of young soldiers wandering around in their military uniforms with automatic rifles hanging over the shoulders. I am saying this because I have been to this shopping mall many times. According to Israel's own doctrine that makes this shopping mall a legit military target, which, of course, is total bullshit. Just like the old and tired argument about "human shields" and "terrorists embedding themselves among civilians".
replies(1): >>41893867 #
29. Wytwwww ◴[17 Oct 24 15:23 UTC] No.41870517{5}[source]▶
> to instead just focus on preventing incursions into Israel.

So after Hamas invaded Israel, massacred over a thousand civilians (and they don't have the "collateral damage" excuse they just gruesomely raped and murdered people because they were apparently subhuman...) and kidnapped hundreds of others, Israel should have just said "aw-shucks.. well they won't get us next time". Really?

That would have actually been worse than the US government doing nothing after 9/11 besides introducing stricter TSA checks.

Now one might legitimately argue whether the reactions in either were necessarily that effective. But not doing anything would have been insanely absurd. You just can't except any non entirely dysfunctional government to behave that way.

It's a horrible situation.. but any suggestion or proposed alternative that wouldn't result in the destruction or significant weakening of Hamas is just not particularly useful (long-term at least).

30. snowfresco ◴[17 Oct 24 15:34 UTC] No.41870628[source]▶
Minimizing civilian casualties is a moral imperative. I am sure the engineers behind "Where's Daddy?" are losing sleep if they have any semblance of a moral conscience. Same goes for anyone who is aware of the true nature of Israel's conduct in Gaza yet still providing cover for it.
31. ArtixFox ◴[17 Oct 24 15:57 UTC] No.41870857{5}[source]▶
sooo prolong the problem so that when you are dead, your descendants have to deal with it and you will be free of the responsibility? Do we forgive oct 7? what precedent would it set for other groups? that you can just go kill and rape people and there will be no response?
replies(1): >>41871032 #
32. pphysch ◴[17 Oct 24 16:14 UTC] No.41871027{4}[source]▶
Evidence-free allegations of "human shields" is not an excuse to repeatedly commit mass murder.

Israel has already executed a proportional response to Oct 7, at least 100 times over. The additional 99+ times represent indefensible war crimes.

33. int_19h ◴[17 Oct 24 16:15 UTC] No.41871032{6}[source]▶
Self-defense is supposed to be proportional. If you're killing 30x as many people in "response", and most of them weren't in any way involved in the original attack, that's not justifiable.
replies(1): >>41873319 #
34. pphysch ◴[17 Oct 24 16:16 UTC] No.41871043{4}[source]▶
Evidence-free allegations of "human shields" is not an excuse to repeatedly commit mass murder.

Israel has already executed a proportional response to Oct 7, at least 100 times over. The extra 99+ times represent unprovoked war crimes.

replies(2): >>41871808 #>>41874370 #
35. dralley ◴[17 Oct 24 17:40 UTC] No.41871808{5}[source]▶
That... is not how wars work. Proportional response is not a requirement.
36. ArtixFox ◴[17 Oct 24 20:17 UTC] No.41873319{7}[source]▶
Self defense is not seen based on how many skulls you collected. Hamas needs to go and that's how Israel will do it's self defense.

Proportionality has nothing to do with self defense.

Hamas the org was involved, and the other ones too, they are the target.

But I do agree that Israel's policies regarding air strikes are fucked up

replies(1): >>41880686 #
37. pazimzadeh ◴[17 Oct 24 21:07 UTC] No.41873796{6}[source]▶
You can start by removing from power the government officials who funded Hamas. After that, yes time travel could help: https://xkcd.com/209/
replies(1): >>41875943 #
38. ArtixFox ◴[18 Oct 24 02:48 UTC] No.41875943{7}[source]▶
How will removing Benjamin change anything?
replies(1): >>41876314 #
39. pazimzadeh ◴[18 Oct 24 04:22 UTC] No.41876314{8}[source]▶
That depends on who replaces him. Do you have a better idea?
replies(1): >>41877385 #
40. ArtixFox ◴[18 Oct 24 08:25 UTC] No.41877385{9}[source]▶
yes, better airstrike policy as a first. Eliminating hamas is important, but instead of letting israel run wild, deploy a coalition so that you can chain israel while also eliminating hamas.
41. int_19h ◴[18 Oct 24 16:06 UTC] No.41880686{8}[source]▶
Proportionality is what makes self-defense defense, and not an excuse to kill people.

The vast majority of the people who are killed in those strikes are not Hamas.

replies(1): >>41887522 #
42. ArtixFox ◴[19 Oct 24 13:00 UTC] No.41887522{9}[source]▶
No? In india 2019, there was a terrorist attack where the jihadist organisation jaish-e-mohammad blew up a bus carrying soldiers via ramming a car filled with IEDs into the bus killing 40 people. In response, india did the balakot airstrikes, killing ~300 terrorists in a training camp [identified via the number of phones that were working in the area that was bombed.]

300 is clearly a bigger number than 40, so was the attack wrong? india used it as an excuse to kill more people than what should be considered a good proportional response!

Since that attack[and other operations], JeM and others became fairly inactive and terrorist attacks have gone down by an insane number, what used to be a daily occurrence and a reason to not attend local festival celebrations due to threat of bombs is now a rarity.

Proportionality has nothing to do with defence. Why on earth would u kill only a few terrorists as a response? Israels actions are fucked up but proportionality does not apply to defence. If a state is retaliating to a threat, why would it leave the threat alive, which would only cost lives of more of its people?

Israel's airstrike policy is bad and roof knocking is not enough, the way israel conducts war is wrong and there needs to be intervention that is able to chain israel while eliminating hamas, demilitarising palestinian jihadist groups and stabilising the region.

But proportionality has nothing to do with defence. you can be disproportional if that means the threat ceases to exist.

43. edanm ◴[20 Oct 24 08:25 UTC] No.41893867{5}[source]▶
The argument isn't that Hamas put their HQ next to civilians. It's that they store their munitions and shoot rockets out of schools. Israel's military HQ (not the ministry of defense), which is indeed located in Tel Aviv - Yafo, is not where tanks will be rolling out of.

Nor does Israel build underground bunkers or areas to shoot rockets out of underneath civilian buildings.