DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

I mean, 1250 euros is a lot of money, but that is very much on the lower end of prices for mid-range espresso machines.

If you don't like espresso and don't find it valuable, that's fine!

Wrong narative. I love espresso. But comparing it with 250 euro espresso machine, I highly doubt that it will make 500% better coffee, for wast majority of the owners, cleaning one < 500 euros machine regularly would make more difference, maybe drying portafilter before use, learning how to equally distribute coffee in portafilter, adding a round cut tea/coffee filter at bottom of it, grind coffee correctly. Price / performance is just not there.

And I am not saying that any other mentioned "mid range" espresso machine is worth that money.

You could make the same argument about a 250 euro espresso machine and a 30 euro moka pot. If the materials are better and the buyer likes it, it’s worth it to them at least. I think most people who own an espresso machine understand it’s a luxury.

Moka and espresso machines produce different coffee though. They operate on the same principle but the pressures are much different.

It is a different type of coffee, you cant compare.

And "understanding it is a luxury" is why the prices are extreme.

i can tell you that more often than not it will make 500% better espresso.

I've owned 5 machines from varying price categories and the number of features you get with a machine around ~1200 gets you the most consistent experience.

can you make a good shot of espresso with a ~250 euro machine? absolutely. can you make 2-5 back to back great shots? probably not. Can you use any bean you want and get a good shot? probably not.

its all about what you value in your experience.

So are coffee from a 250 EUR "espresso" machine and a higher-end one

Should I mention audiophiles? The first feeling when you turn on a new system, it will never come back, until you get an arguably better system...

And the rabbit hole is deep. How much did you pay for grinder?

I think this is worth (for espresso lover) far more than 1250 euro machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTFsBqhpLes&list=PLxz0FjZMVO...

I'd be very curious to see a 250E 58mm espresso machine with anything resembling the temperature stability of an E61.

Actually higher end ones are at 20.000 euros, so I will rather drink my 6666 espressos in bar, made by professional, on 20k euros machine with zero effort. I am good for next 18 years.

I find it cute that you think people arguing that 1250E is not that much for a quality espresso machine don't know Hoffman's videos like the back of their hands :)

Yeah, I am also curious to see coffees on both done by professional barista, blind tasting and the results.

edit: found something, but unfortunately, not the same barista and only two tasters. Plus decorations on milk gave a hint who made what... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YhsDPz2I0

No, coffee from a 250 EUR espresso machine and a higher end machine are still espresso. Stovetop doesn't make espresso coffee.

They are fundamentally different processes which product a completely different output.

But this is a wrong metric to use! _Can_ you get the same coffee out of 250E machine as from a 20kE one? Probably!

Will it take the same amount of work? Will it be as repeatable as the more expensive one? Will you need to temperature surf? How many wasted shots does it take me to dial in? Can you steam milk at the same time as pulling a shot? Can you do a ~19g dose?

If "taste under best possible conditiosn" is your _only_ metric, then, sure, I guess anything over a baseline espresso machine is frivolous.

But espresso is _very_ finicky to get right, even with the best and most expensive equipment, under the best circumstances. Having a reliable, repeatable machine removes one variable from the equation, letting you worry about one thing less.

Creature comforts and convenience are valuable too! A beat-up 1990 sedan will get you from A-B just the same as a 2024 luxury german car. But people value _nice things_.

Audiophiles are a bad analogy since you can setup a blind taste test of coffee equipment. And different people will make the same identifications. Which suggests that we all tasted the same thing. Where as you can’t tell the difference between cables.

I’m all for being skeptical, especially with something as subjective as taste.

But it always amuses me that people never bother to check their skepticism. Has it ever occurred to you that you might one day be wrong?

I don't disagree that a moka pot and espresso are completely different processes, I'm saying that a 250 EUR espresso machine is not going to be capable of making actual espresso (barring stuff like Flair that takes away components to make it work).

But the facts are showing something else: https://www.delonghi.com/en-gb/products/coffee/manual-espres...

Just head to technical data and feel free to explain which parameter is wrong. Take the cheapest one, 213 euros. Is is 15 (12) bar of pressure? Some other type of heater, as 1300 Watts of input power is not enough?

Seriously, I don't understand what the limiting factor is? Not expensive enough?

I even tried to find explanation by Hoffman and:

- cheaper

- plastic, not a lot of metal

- light

- small drip tray

- you need to "grip" it, whatever that means

- if you are clumsy you press buttons

- what you would expect for the money

But nothing about the taste of espresso... ;)

Somehow it looks not luxurious enough, right?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L7WniyTqV9I

Someone actually did a blind study comparing flat vs conical grinders with over 150 coffee professionals [0] to find they could not discern a difference in how the coffee was ground before being brewed while controlling for other variables.

So it would seem that Audiophiles are the perfect analogy.

0: https://youtu.be/3XYTi6OBecA?t=2400 (Discussion on the study begins around 34:00)

So we agree on most important factor. You can get a great espresso from 5 times cheaper machine. This is what I was claiming. Price / performance, not worthy.

I mean, audiophiles are also buying audiophile routers (digital technology is irrelevant here) and audiophile stones ( https://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/201... ).

There always needs to be someone that overpays things or we would have those 1250 euro machines for 250 euros when market instead of hype would start working.

Lack of temperature control is a minus, as that means that there will be some blends that won't taste good, these days most fancy machines have a pid (and if yours doesn't you should install it, or you are missing out).

Kind of related, lack of boiler at 1.5 atm means non-great milk foaming capabilities.

Also, you buy a good 1500$ machine, your grandchildren will be able to inherit it if you take care of it. That delhongi won't last two days further than the minimum required by guarantee.

For 1000$ difference in price, I wont buy those blends, there are zillions of others to try. So simple. Anyway, I have checked and there is some temperature control + you can get more if you turn up the steam making and turn back to espresso making. A "hack".

About milk foaming, you are talking about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7tS99wwpSI as I dont see any issue with the foam. I do see skill.

Anyway, a life hack, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007334888419.html, 0.91$ replacement for 1000$ boiler. And it does wonderful foam, was using it 10 years back on 1xAA battery.

So, if I buy 5x Dedica (edit, just checked: 167 euro in my country, so it is actually 8x) for the price, and package them NEW for my grandchildren, this doesnt count?

I’d love to see what grinders and specific burrs she used.

We also setup a blinded coded triangle test, there was only 3 of us and four grinders: one $5k grinder, 2x$2.5k, one $700. 2 flat 2 conical. The flats have teeth supposedly for filter brewing. One coffee.

We picked the grinders correctly. Obviously we could have better methods, but the differences seemed obvious between the flats and conical. Within the same geometry, I think I just guessed the better tasting one to me was the more expensive grinder which may or may not be true. This surprised us. We didn’t think we’d pick anything. But all agreed on similar tasting notes for the flats and conical with no proper discussion or even looking at the notes for the coffee.

Brewing espresso I even observe psychical differences during the brew. I have two sets of flat burrs from the same grinder. Different teeth pattern. Same coating. One set allows me to go much finer to hit the same grams per second out and always leaves a soupy mess in the basket regardless of setting. The other doesn’t leave a soupy mess and grinds courser. I don’t know what’s happening. But this is easy to reproduce.

But then again, I also have a hand grinder that tastes more like my flats. And was quite cheap. So flat vs conical may not matter at all and it’s the shape of the cutting surface.

I bet the temperature of the beans when they are ground and brewed make more of a difference than the grinder you use.

The same bean on my setup with 2 pre-weighed doses at room temp. One dose is vacuum packed and frozen over night.

When making espresso, the frozen beans straight from the freezer, must be ground finer for the same rate of output. And it tastes slightly more intense. I would guess that TDS went up but I can't prove that. All I can prove is that the space between the burrs is smaller.

This is a very different difference than between flats and conicals. If you brew for cupping, that is grinds straight in water, the conicals produce a muddier coffee. Basically more fine bits of coffee are in suspension and you can feel it.

This woman was serving up filter coffee. If she used good filter paper, and ground coffee appropriately, I can totally buy that almost all the fines were removed from the final product and no difference can be tasted.

I don't feel like discounting "convenience" and "ease of use" to 0 is a reasonable argument; but we clearly disagree here.