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361 points robenkleene | 57 comments | | HN request time: 2.264s | source | bottom
1. mokus ◴[] No.23283932[source]
I guess the list of things keeping me off catalina (and, by extension, new Mac hardware) just got one item longer.

I recently bought a new System76 laptop as a stopgap, but it might end up becoming permanent. Kind of a sad end for 25+ years of Mac use.

replies(10): >>23284197 #>>23284366 #>>23284643 #>>23284871 #>>23285038 #>>23285254 #>>23285313 #>>23285345 #>>23285555 #>>23286897 #
2. rimliu ◴[] No.23284197[source]
I upgraded my 2015 MBP 13" to Catalina and happily continue to Mac stint since 2006.
replies(1): >>23284581 #
3. lern_too_spel ◴[] No.23284366[source]
With issues like this and the 4000 series Ryzen mobile processors, top specced MacBook Pros are very noticably slower than $1k alternatives.
replies(1): >>23285528 #
4. 72deluxe ◴[] No.23284581[source]
What does df -h in the terminal say?

It'll show the total of each partition (the normal, and the new read-only system partition) on their own line, thereby giving a false total. e.g. 1x 100GB disk, 50GB normal, 50GB system partition will show as capacity 100GB for both partitions which would mean a 200GB disk.

Small things like this just make me completely lose faith in Catalina.

EDIT: Other "fun" things I noticed within half an hour:

a. Text search in PDF no longer works

b. I can't create anything under /

c. I have to use synthetic.conf to map paths from / to my real partition, but the parser of synthetic.conf is very particular to tabs/spaces unlike any other /etc/ file format

d. Xcode wants to ask for my password to debug every single time I reboot and debug a C++ app. This is incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly annoying.

Safari is faster in general use. But that's so far the only good point.

I'll keep it on a SSD for App Store submissions and keep my machine on an older decent version thanks

replies(3): >>23285003 #>>23286120 #>>23286199 #
5. rayiner ◴[] No.23284643[source]
My 16” is a huge disappointment. After swearing off Intel PCs after a disaster ours X1 Carbon, I switched back to a 2013 15” until this month. Figured after six months bugs would be ironed out. Wrong. I’m seeing two major glitches that have macrumors threads dozens of pages long: 1) with an external display connected, dGPU utilization shoots up to 20W at idle. (The rest of machine draws well under 10W at idle.) That wouldn’t be a big deal if the CPU and GPU didn’t share a tight 70W power budget. 2) when connected to an external monitor or dock—I’ve tried two different TB3 docks—the machine kernel panics regularly, usually waking up from sleep.

I’m torn. I don’t want to return the machine because everything else is crap. At least the 16” works well as a laptop so long as you don’t plug anything into the ports. But Apple’s Q&A has seriously gone down the toilet ever since Steve Jobs died. Clearly him throwing staplers at people was the glue holding Apple together.

replies(5): >>23284696 #>>23284992 #>>23285033 #>>23286942 #>>23288233 #
6. reaperducer ◴[] No.23284696[source]
when connected to an external monitor or dock—I’ve tried two different TB3 docks—the machine kernel panics regularly, usually waking up from sleep.

I had a similar problem, and it turned out that the dock needed a driver. I don't think I've installed a driver for an external device since I switched to Macs years ago, so it never occurred to me that something like a dock would need a driver.

But it turns out that once I installed the vendor's driver, the problems all went away. I'm not sure who's fault that is.

7. jmvoodoo ◴[] No.23284871[source]
I've heard bad things about system76 laptop build quality (desktop I think is top notch). Has this improved at all?
replies(1): >>23287905 #
8. Marsymars ◴[] No.23284992[source]
I've had neverending problems with sleep mode on the Macs I've owned (2012 Mac Mini, now 2016 MacBook usually docked) - never really worked out the issue other than entirely disabling sleep when connected to power.
9. Marsymars ◴[] No.23285003{3}[source]
> a. Text search in PDF no longer works

Oh is this macOS? I'd just assumed all the PDFs I've tried to search for the past while have been poorly formatted with the text as images, but that makes more sense.

> I'll keep it on a SSD for App Store submissions and keep my machine on an older decent version thanks

FYI it's pretty easy to integrate binary upload to App Store Connect on the CLI of your CI system.

replies(1): >>23321201 #
10. thestephen ◴[] No.23285033[source]
Since 10.15.4, my 16" started having kernel panics while waking up from sleep. Disabling Power Nap seems to mitigate this.

While this is an awful stopgap solution, at least I can get back to work.

replies(1): >>23291834 #
11. digitaltrees ◴[] No.23285038[source]
What are the other problems with Catalina for you? I ask because every time there is an OS X update someone posts this exact sentiment but then over a few months the issues get resolved. Please don’t interpret this as an attack; I am genuinely curious and want to see if Apple ends up fixing things.

I my self have a maxed out 16 MacBook Pro and a for the first few weeks after the upgrade it was literally in usable because routine user input would result in the entire system locking up. I suspect it was actually this issue but, thankfully, the issue is now resolved.

replies(3): >>23285486 #>>23285494 #>>23285864 #
12. vmception ◴[] No.23285254[source]
One thing that always turned me off of Windows was that I would be in the control panel or command line within 5 minutes of using any system to fix a preference, and how with OSX it was refreshing not to have to do the equivalent in System Preferences or terminal.

This is no longer true. It is a very similar and annoying experience for me.

I use OSX, Windows and various versions of Linux.

The browser is the real platform at this point and is the shared experience between all three.

replies(1): >>23310707 #
13. wincent ◴[] No.23285313[source]
I was gnashing my teeth over exactly this last night — 26 years on a Mac for me:

https://wincent.com/blog/grieving-for-apple

14. mohdmasd ◴[] No.23285345[source]
There's also the issue of losing all your data if you enabled Secure-Boot (which is default) and the T2 chip failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dwqxsDHkKQ

15. msie ◴[] No.23285486[source]
I installed Catalina on my iMac several days ago and ImageCapture still has bugs! Although I can now select multiple photos to import from my iPhone 11, ImageCapture will not delete the photos after import. Previous to that, ImageCapture on Catalina would not import more than 10 photos without reporting an error. At least they fixed that bug.
replies(1): >>23286002 #
16. lisper ◴[] No.23285494[source]
Not a Catalina issue per se, but the big problem with Apple nowadays is:

1. Upgrades are not optional. The system will relentlessly nag me until I upgrade even if I don't want to upgrade.

2. Upgrades are crap shoots. An Apple upgrade nowadays is as likely to break things as it is to fix things.

3. Upgrades are difficult and sometimes impossible to revert. If an upgrade breaks something, I'm just screwed.

So I'm still running Mavericks. It works. It's reliable. It does everything I need it to do. And I can count on that still being the case tomorrow. If I upgrade, all bets are off.

replies(1): >>23285721 #
17. fierarul ◴[] No.23285528[source]
I see the above comment heavily downvoted but I'm specifically looking at 4000 series Ryzen laptops as my 1st move away from MacBook Pros. Such incredible CPUs really make the decision a bit more acceptable. The laptop I'm eyeing is near $1000.
replies(3): >>23286993 #>>23287030 #>>23287747 #
18. amelius ◴[] No.23285555[source]
Don't worry, Apple will change this. Big companies always make sure that customers just barely find their products acceptable. This was just a test to see if they could get away with it.
19. LeoPanthera ◴[] No.23285721{3}[source]
Although I sympathize, this is one issue, not three. And hardly anything unique to Apple.
replies(2): >>23285766 #>>23287498 #
20. lisper ◴[] No.23285766{4}[source]
It seems pretty unique to Apple in my experience. I have an ancient Android tablet. I don't even know how old the OS is on it. It never nags me to upgrade. My Linux boxes never nag me to upgrade. When I do upgrade, things mostly keep working, and if they don't it's pretty easy to roll things back.
replies(2): >>23285786 #>>23287722 #
21. LeoPanthera ◴[] No.23285786{5}[source]
Android never getting updates is not a feature!
replies(1): >>23286754 #
22. mthoms ◴[] No.23285864[source]
I'm in a similar boat. The first few weeks with my 16" MBP was pretty bad. Everything seems resolved now, except the issue with the discreet GPU kicking in when an external monitor is plugged in. This, in turn causes the fans to spin up (which is annoying when trying to code).

My 2017 13" MBP (without discreet GPU) was barely usable when powering my 4K monitor but at least it was quiet. It makes me think that the more modern integrated Intel GPU in the 16" should be enough to power my monitor without fan noise. Sadly, Apple has decided I can't have that option.

23. knolan ◴[] No.23286002{3}[source]
I’m curious, is there a reason to use image capture when you can just AirDrop the images? Does Image Capture give you the HEIC format file or something?
replies(1): >>23287853 #
24. saagarjha ◴[] No.23286120{3}[source]
> Text search in PDF no longer works

In Safari or in general? I have only noticed the former.

> I have to use synthetic.conf to map paths from / to my real partition, but the parser of synthetic.conf is very particular to tabs/spaces unlike any other /etc/ file format

You may already know this, but man synthetic.conf will explain that you must use tabs.

> Xcode wants to ask for my password to debug every single time I reboot and debug a C++ app. This is incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly annoying.

I can only offer you my condolences as I cruise by with SIP off.

replies(1): >>23287901 #
25. cschep ◴[] No.23286199{3}[source]
Checkout `DevToolsSecurity` on the command line. Could help with d. :)
replies(1): >>23321202 #
26. lisper ◴[] No.23286754{6}[source]
I much prefer no updates over broken updates, especially when they are forced on me. Stable bugs are better than a never ending stream of new ones.
27. x3n0ph3n3 ◴[] No.23286897[source]
How does the keyboard and trackpad for that System76 laptop feel? I've been looking at those quite a bit and am seriously considering one to replace my 2014 MacBook Air.
28. nightowl_games ◴[] No.23286942[source]
My partner is a graphic designer who loathed her 13" macbook that her work got her. She finally got an upgrade to a 16", i9, 64 gigs of ram.

It runs adobe software like total shit.

I think it's something to do with Catalina + accessing files in Google Drive File Stream + Adobe.

It runs illustrator horribly.

It's basically the saddest thing I've ever seen.

I think I'll get her a 17" XPS for christmas this year.

replies(2): >>23287572 #>>23288038 #
29. shade ◴[] No.23286993{3}[source]
Out of curiosity - what are you looking at? I'm also starting to think about replacing my 2016 MBP and quite honestly, the current MacBook Air/MacBook Pro line doesn't really appeal to me.

Lenovo has a couple of AMD-based ThinkPads that are looking pretty appealing, although they come in around $1500 with the configuration I'd want.

replies(1): >>23293486 #
30. ChrisLTD ◴[] No.23287030{3}[source]
What are you eyeing?
replies(1): >>23293504 #
31. rayiner ◴[] No.23287498{4}[source]
It’s not unique to Apple, but that didn’t used to be the case. I’ve used a Mac for almost 15 years. My previous Macs had issues, no doubt. Got bit by the peeling anti glare issue on my 2013 MBP 15” (after 5+ years of heavy use). But I’ve had maybe two kernel panics in all that time. With my new 16”, I’ve had half a dozen in two weeks. Waking from sleep used to be the basic functionality that “just worked” on Apple machines and where Windows and Linux laptops struggled. That was the benefit you got in return for spending extra on closed hardware platform.
32. Ductapemaster ◴[] No.23287572{3}[source]
For what it's worth, I have _never_ had good luck with "big vendor" software (like Adobe) and using any sort of synced cloud-based filestore. I have had untold issues with things and as soon as I moved files local, everything magically went away. Might try that!
replies(1): >>23293160 #
33. aflag ◴[] No.23287722{5}[source]
How do you roll back an upgrade in android and whatever linux distribution you're using?
replies(2): >>23287775 #>>23288062 #
34. caycep ◴[] No.23287747{3}[source]
the problem is those are second citizens for most vendors; there's some shady Intel lock in that prevents AMD from getting prime place in the lineup. So you'll get a great CPU but second rate screens, trackpads, etc.
replies(1): >>23293501 #
35. lisper ◴[] No.23287775{6}[source]
I've never had to roll back a Linux upgrade but if I had to I could always restore from a backup. You can sometimes do that with MacOS, but some MacOS upgrades come with firmware upgrades which are one-way and prevent earlier versions from booting. And all iOS upgrades are one-way.

I don't know about Android. I only have one Android device. It is so old I don't even remember how old it is and I've only ever upgraded it once. It still works like a charm for all the things I need it to do.

36. brigandish ◴[] No.23287853{4}[source]
Surely it's faster?
replies(1): >>23290965 #
37. brigandish ◴[] No.23287901{4}[source]
I keep a copy of Skim around for any time I want to do a proper search of a document.
38. freehunter ◴[] No.23287905[source]
System76 uses rebranded Sager And Clevo laptops, they don’t actually build their own. So you can probably get some more (and more diverse) reviews by searching for the model of the actual manufacturer.
39. sk5t ◴[] No.23288038{3}[source]
Any third-party antivirus or other corporate compliance-ware? Google FS and AV don't work so well together.
40. sk5t ◴[] No.23288062{6}[source]
Perhaps LVM snapshots are an option for Linux rollback?
41. deergomoo ◴[] No.23288233[source]
I have both of the issues you describe.

Unfortunately, while the kernel panics will most likely be fixed eventually (10.15.4 is a complete shitshow, even by Catalina standards), it seems the dGPU is actually working as designed with the high idle power draw. If you search for “navi multiple monitor power draw” you can find reports of desktop AMD cards that predate the 16” MacBook Pro that exhibit the exact same behaviour. It’s something to do with memory clocks and mismatched resolutions/refresh rates between monitors, and I very much doubt it will ever be addressed via software (if it even can be).

Very annoying as it causes the fans to spin up audibly when you put it under the slightest stress.

Like you I don’t know what to do. I’m able to return it due to the extended return window they have currently, but I have absolutely no intent of switching to Windows or Linux.

replies(1): >>23288732 #
42. rayiner ◴[] No.23288732{3}[source]
> you search for “navi multiple monitor power draw” you can find reports of desktop AMD cards that predate the 16” MacBook Pro that exhibit the exact same behaviour. It’s something to do with memory clocks and mismatched resolutions/refresh rates between monitors, and I very much doubt it will ever be addressed via software (if it even can be).

At least when operating in clamshell mode with one external monitor, I can get the power usage to drop from 20W down to 5W by using switchresx and dropping the refresh rate from 59.88 to 56.88 Hz. When I do that, even light WebGL work doesn’t cause it to exceed 7-8 watts.

It sounds like some work around for the special case of a single external monitor with the internal display closed isn’t kicking in like it’s supposed to.

replies(1): >>23291609 #
43. knolan ◴[] No.23290965{5}[source]
It requires finding a (USB 2.0) cable, connecting both devices, approving trust, and then opening an App and selecting and waiting.

AirDrop requires touch based selection and sharing on the iOS device and the transfer is very quick and if it’s your Mac the files go straight to your downloads folder.

So it’s more streamlined overall with AirDrop.

I had a colleague who used to do a similar dance with Image Capture. He had no idea he could AirDrop photos even though he airdropped files from Finder to others all the time.

Personally I just have them all sync via iCloud Photo Library.

replies(1): >>23296240 #
44. deergomoo ◴[] No.23291609{4}[source]
From the 60+ page MacRumours forum thread about the issue, a lot of people don't have the issue at all in clamshell mode (even without the SwitchResX hackery).

My understanding of the issue is that the card has variable memory clocks to save power. However, to avoid visual distortion/tearing, the clocks can only be changed during the monitor's v-blank. However, when you have multiple monitors, presumably you would need extra circuitry or at least some mechanism ensure each monitor is in sync, or to detect when the blanking intervals match when using monitors with different refresh rates. I don't have a strong knowledge of this sort of thing, so I don't know how exactly this is achieved, but in this case AMD has "solved" the problem by simply running the memory clocks at full tilt 100% of the time, thereby avoiding the need to precisely time changes in speed.

replies(1): >>23291773 #
45. rayiner ◴[] No.23291773{5}[source]
Right. The problem shouldn’t happen at all in clamshell mode because there is just one monitor. But it seems like in certain configurations the MacOS or the driver gets confused.
46. new_realist ◴[] No.23291834{3}[source]
Fixed in the latest beta.
replies(1): >>23293361 #
47. oefnak ◴[] No.23293160{4}[source]
You can also set the relevant folders to keep the files always available offline.
48. rayiner ◴[] No.23293361{4}[source]
I’m on the latest beta and it still kernel panics for me with the same message.
49. fierarul ◴[] No.23293486{4}[source]
Because I need a fast CPU for builds I'm looking at ASUS "gaming" laptops. The ASUS TUF Gaming A15 in particular is under $1000 before taxes here and has a good Ryzen. There are even better gaming laptops from ASUS that are thinner, but I think the A15 is a good 'workhorse'.
50. fierarul ◴[] No.23293501{4}[source]
So it would seem but the CPU might still be worth it, even if I connect it to an external display. We'll see...
51. fierarul ◴[] No.23293504{4}[source]
The ASUS TUF Gaming A15. It's a bit flashy but for home office it works.
52. brigandish ◴[] No.23296240{6}[source]
The trust approval either never happens or it happened once and I don't remember. I also find it's a quicker interface than Airdrop, which is slow and also lengthened by my having to turn on bluetooth and then turn it off in the settings at the end. File transfer is much quicker.

Finding a USB cable though, sometimes that does take a search and a wee bit of cursing!

replies(1): >>23304353 #
53. knolan ◴[] No.23304353{7}[source]
It’s always interesting to read about other folks workflows for simple tasks.
54. timw4mail ◴[] No.23310707[source]
Hah, I don't remember the last time I set up any OS and didn't have to change settings on first boot.

Maybe OS X 10.4 worked for me out of the box.

The longer you use a computer, the more you expect certain behavior, and the less you get it out of the box.

55. 72deluxe ◴[] No.23321201{4}[source]
Thanks, do you have any pointers on binary upload via CLI etc.?
replies(1): >>23325413 #
56. 72deluxe ◴[] No.23321202{4}[source]
Thanks for this
57. Marsymars ◴[] No.23325413{5}[source]
I've used Bitrise for iOS CI, in which case their integration just takes your Apple username/password as input in the build process. If you're scripting it yourself or testing locally you want to look at the xcrun altool command. (Which Apple doesn't document very well, but you can cobble together usage from Googling parameters/issues.)

* https://app.bitrise.io/integrations/steps/deploy-to-itunesco...

* https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/notarizing_m...