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383 points imartin2k | 43 comments | | HN request time: 0.832s | source | bottom
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fastball ◴[] No.14330444[source]
I rode for UberEats for two weeks and made roughly £22 an hour.

To be fair, this was when they were just coming into London and offering crazy bonuses to steal market share from Deliveroo, but still, this isn't controversial - if someone pays you bad wages, don't work for them...

replies(2): >>14330546 #>>14330868 #
1. libeclipse ◴[] No.14330546[source]
That's some solid advice, but for some people, that's simply not an option.

If you can't find work elsewhere, you'd rather work for pennies than for nothing.

replies(4): >>14330575 #>>14330657 #>>14330939 #>>14331172 #
2. ◴[] No.14330575[source]
3. Murkin ◴[] No.14330657[source]
So its better that Uber didn't offer this job at all?
replies(5): >>14330666 #>>14330678 #>>14330774 #>>14332292 #>>14332681 #
4. libeclipse ◴[] No.14330666[source]
I don't see which part of my comment implied any solution, never mind the specific solution you've inferred.
5. jacobr ◴[] No.14330678[source]
It would be better if they offered the job with reasonable wages and conditions. If consumers are not willing to pay enough for Uber to be able to offer this, they have a poor business model or are in the wrong market.

You could say the same about any regulation, if you cannot manufacture something at a reasonable price without polluting more than allowed, you need to change your prices or adjust your business model.

replies(3): >>14330779 #>>14330986 #>>14334509 #
6. Dylan16807 ◴[] No.14330774[source]
That's quite likely correct. Maybe they'd be forced to fix the downtime issues, allowing people to make the same amount of deliveries/wages in fewer hours.
7. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14330779{3}[source]
> It would be better if they offered the job with reasonable wages and condition

Out would be better if kfc rained from the sky, but that's not an option.

Why is their business model "poor"? If prices go up, so will what is considered a "reasonable" wage. What's a "reasonable" skillset that an employee must offer to get such a wage.

Difference with pollution, is that its fine to just not pollute. Just not employing makes the situation worse.

replies(2): >>14330869 #>>14331225 #
8. rocqua ◴[] No.14330869{4}[source]
A business model that requires paying wages that you can't live on, it seems reasonable to call that business model a net loss for society.
replies(2): >>14330951 #>>14331648 #
9. SilasX ◴[] No.14330939[source]
Who is it that can only find work with UberEats?
replies(2): >>14332064 #>>14332475 #
10. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14330951{5}[source]
So basically, its better that these workers be unemployed? Or you assume there will be an unlimited supply of alternate jobs available?
replies(3): >>14331605 #>>14331642 #>>14332210 #
11. dominotw ◴[] No.14330986{3}[source]
> you need to change your prices or adjust your business model.

so its better for a job to not exist rather than exist without reasonable wage?

replies(3): >>14331095 #>>14331132 #>>14332273 #
12. jacobr ◴[] No.14331095{4}[source]
The alternative is for Uber to invest in increased productivity, just like other industries. Making each worked hour give more return. They could supply better bikes, as another poster suggested less downtime for drivers, better algorithms to cut the length of the routes, higher fees for customers... I'm sure there are clever people that can figure it out.
replies(1): >>14331210 #
13. vertex-four ◴[] No.14331132{4}[source]
Back in the real world, the job exists without Uber - delivery drivers have existed for a long, long time. Deliveroo, Uber Eats, etc have primarily just shifted work away from individual restaurants employing drivers to the Uber model.
14. troupe ◴[] No.14331172[source]
> but for some people, that's simply not an option.

In the article the author tries two options: Uber Eats and Foodora. So, yes, in theory there are probably some people who would rather have the Uber Eats "work when you want" schedule rather than Foodora's but that very much falls within the realm of what fastball was suggesting with "if someone pays you bad wages, don't work for them."

Just because you don't value that type of flexibility doesn't mean someone else won't value it. It seems like the more options there are for people looking for jobs the better.

15. ◴[] No.14331210{5}[source]
16. slizard ◴[] No.14331225{4}[source]
> Why is their business model "poor"?

Because it relies on exploitation. It offers pennies for work that ha real risks involved. No insurance, not even bike maintenance is offered. You're on your own and if you happen to be the unemployed, unprivileged youngster from the outskirts of Stockholm (quite common) and anything happens while you're riding for one of these companies (car hits you, pedestrian walks out in front of you, etc.), at best your bike is busted and you can't even pay back the money you borrowed to buy it just to get the job. At worst you'll have serious injuries and you'll need treatment that you'll get for relatively little cost only because this is Sweden not one of those fucked up countries where health care is terrible and you'd go bankrupt if such a thing happened to you.

That's why the mode is poor. It makes me sad that all these delivery companies build thir business on exploitation.

replies(1): >>14332323 #
17. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.14331605{6}[source]
Wrong premise. It's better to design your economy in a way that doesn't privilege shareholder and investor "risk" over employee and citizen risk.

Why should be corporations be given a free hand to act in ways that increase costs, increase personal risk, and lower opportunity for all but a tiny subset of the population?

replies(1): >>14331636 #
18. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14331636{7}[source]
What do you mean "wrong premise"? It might be better to design your mathematics so that 1 + 1 = 3, but the argument here is if that is possible.

At the level of an economy, the burden is on you to show that minimum wage results in lower risk/higher opportunity for employees.

19. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14331642{6}[source]
I got a bunch of down-votes for questioning unworkable economics?

Just "imagining" there is a better way isn't a plan.

Whatever. If ppl in this thread wants to argue magical economics and down-vote anyone that disagrees, go ahead.

20. refurb ◴[] No.14331648{5}[source]
Really? There isn't anyone out there looking for part-time work to supplement their existing salary?

Not everyone is looking for a full-time job.

replies(2): >>14331974 #>>14332572 #
21. ddingus ◴[] No.14331974{6}[source]
When the majority of new jobs do not pay living wages, this argument breaks down.

Sure, people want gig, part time work. They aren't the issue.

Over 40 percent of workers make minimum or below on gig wages.

The vast majority of new jobs pay these wages and they aren't enough. People work at a net loss, the impact being we, who can make it, subsidize the business models by social spending, and or people live terribly.

We aren't bankrolling good jobs lost. A majority of Americans struggle economically today, and those numbers are climbing.

The usual argument is it becoming cheaper to live. The reality does not align to that expectation.

We need to fix this. Either is fine. It really does become cheaper to live, or very large numbers of people need more from their labor, or we accept a much lower standard of living and tepid demand that goes along with all that.

Which is it, and how can we improve?

replies(1): >>14332353 #
22. paulddraper ◴[] No.14332064[source]
Given that they apparently pay so terribly, I guess the answer is "anyone working for UberEats"?
23. eveningcoffee ◴[] No.14332210{6}[source]
Yes, it is better these people are unemployed and receive unemployment benefits until they manage to find a real job.

Because they are making the situation worse for everyone.

replies(1): >>14332371 #
24. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332273{4}[source]
> so its better for a job to not exist rather than exist without reasonable wage?

This is quite obviously a false dichotomy. Its not necessary bad when a job doesn't exist (e.g. the job 'head of slave labour team' doesn't exist anymore), and the obvious best outcome appears to be a fair wage for a (therefore existing) job.

Uber doesn't seem to follow local laws. For example [and this is really one of the many examples], in The Netherlands you need a license to drive a taxi which made UberPop illegal. Uber didn't care, they launched it anyway. This appears to be the modus operandus of Uber: shoot first, ask questions later.

The way they try to get drivers for Uber as documented here (again, in The Netherlands, article in Dutch use Google Translate) [1], underpaying them after they're in, is also disheartening and only benefits Uber; neither the customers nor the drivers. So what Uber did there was invest in driving their competition away. Of course, people don't wanna pay for pennies, but that's why they have the Uber brand. They use this branding together with state of the art technology to get customers (workers and clients).

The more this information gets out, the less victims Uber is able to make.

[1] http://www.taxibelangen.nl/ervaringen-ex-uber-chauffeur/

25. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332292[source]
> So its better that Uber didn't offer this job at all?

Are you happy MLM jobs exist, or would you rather see them non-existent?

26. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332323{5}[source]
Well said, and on top of that the pressure to deliver in a short amount of time is high. Which leads to taking risks in traffic. Sure, that might go well usually [deliberately not gonna make examples where it can go well], but there's still a higher risk than abiding the traffic law. You can actually read in the article that the reporter broke the law, on multiple occasions.

One thing it has going for it is that as with a lot of jobs you get better with practice. You learn to take your breaks, you get better muscles (as with any physical labour job), etc. However, what happens if you retract a muscle one day? In a normal job you'd call sick, and in EU if you're on contract that means benefits.

What we need is two things: one we need laws structured to make this type of self-employment illegal (since the relationship between contractor and contractee is clearly top-down, and requires near to no expertise), and two we need active enforcement of this law.

27. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332353{7}[source]
> Which is it, and how can we improve?

Minimum wage exists for a reason. Minimum wage is per hour. What we need is to have this type of employment to be illegal, and we need to have this actively enforced.

I find it mind boggling it still exists, and I suspect it is because of illegal immigrants falling for it. Incidentally, that's also why the reporter was so easily hired: there's a huge demand for low paid workers, but actually this is illegal competition with minimum wage workers.

If that cannot be worked with without increasing the cost of delivery the solution is very simple: increase the price of the food in combination with delivery. Let the customers pay a fair price for their food plus delivery instead.

Someone should also look into Amazon Mechanical Turk. It has the very same issue we discuss, but it has a benefit (for Amazon): its not specific to the physical world (like delivery) and is world-wide, and therefore can also exploit world-wide.

replies(1): >>14336797 #
28. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14332371{7}[source]
so your idea is necessarily tied to the existence of unemployment benefit.
replies(2): >>14332675 #>>14332773 #
29. Noos ◴[] No.14332475[source]
I'm guessing a lot of it is homeless people. Even in retail, you'd be surprised at how many people go from their job to the shelter afterwards.
30. Noos ◴[] No.14332572{6}[source]
I want you to dig some ditches for me. It will take you one hour per ditch to do, with some fairly strenuous work. For doing this, I will pay you the grand amount of $5 a ditch.

Would you be jumping on the chance to supplement your income after a long 8 hour day? especially if i told you that you first needed to buy a shovel out of your own pocket, even though I'd let you dig up to four ditches a day?

31. rapind ◴[] No.14332675{8}[source]
When there exists a social net, isn't it obvious that the existence of poor costs money? Plus, that money disproportionately comes from the lower and middle class in the form of tax.

So in reality all you're doing with an underpaid gig economy is allowing corps to indirectly make money off of taxpayers instead of just the customers / companies involved in the service.

TLDR; You're paying a tax for someone else to get their food delivered.

replies(2): >>14333276 #>>14334527 #
32. rawicki ◴[] No.14332681[source]
The salary model of Uber doesn't give its contractors enough information to estimate how much they will earn.

If they had offered flat 4.40$ rate probably noone would take the job.

Would people take the job if they were presented with a distribution of hourly rates among already employed workers?

33. eveningcoffee ◴[] No.14332773{8}[source]
The idea goes like this: drive to the bottom is not beneficial for the society as whole and therefore it is reasonable to establish some form of minimum wage.

As this prohibits very low paying jobs (i.e. better than nothing) then it would be fair to offer unemployment benefits in return.

replies(1): >>14333305 #
34. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14333276{9}[source]
That's not true; if no one offered "underpaid" work we'd pay more tax, so that interpretation doesn't work.

What you don't understand is that whike "existence of poor costs money", underpaid jobs do not made people poor - you'd have to assume that if companies where held to a minimum wage, that they just pay that (and/or raise prices), rather than employ less.

replies(1): >>14336276 #
35. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14333305{9}[source]
Which means you also have to control immigration so that you don't get too many poor immigrants on those benefits.

Now the same poor immigrants that would have suffered from a low wage, suffer from never entering the country in the first place, and suffering a low wage in their home country with no benefits.

replies(1): >>14335954 #
36. prostoalex ◴[] No.14334509{3}[source]
> If consumers are not willing to pay enough for Uber to be able to offer this, they have a poor business model or are in the wrong market.

This is a very elitist view, as it benefits only high-margin businesses, usually catering to the richest parts of the society.

It just so happens that margins generated by Neiman Marcus, Whole Foods Market, or a white-cloth Michelin-starred restaurant will allow it to survive. Margins generated by a clothing thrift shop, corner bodega or a taco stand - not so much. Scores of businesses in the latter group are shut down, some are exempted (US conveniently does not enforce minimum wage laws on self-employed or family operations), some rely on undocumented labor and cash economy.

Economists who advocate this, meanwhile, find the nest hot topic for conferences and panel discussions: "Food deserts in poor neighborhoods - root causes and possible solutions".

37. prostoalex ◴[] No.14334527{9}[source]
Suppose one day gig economy companies all go out of business, and all their current workforce files for unemployment benefits.

Is my tax burden as a taxpayer going up or down?

replies(1): >>14335951 #
38. rapind ◴[] No.14335951{10}[source]
Hard to say. What are they going to spend their unemployment benefits on? What is replacing the gig economy companies?
replies(1): >>14337525 #
39. eveningcoffee ◴[] No.14335954{10}[source]
I really do not know why you bring the immigration into the question.
replies(1): >>14338559 #
40. rapind ◴[] No.14336276{10}[source]
If companies are held to a minimum wage, then they'll pay it. Sure, maybe it becomes more cost effective to invest in technology that requires them to pay less people... but I would argue they are doing that already (especially in the context of Uber), regardless of whether it's gig or minimum wage.

Rich people don't buy more stuff in proportion to what they make. So the more money that moves from the lower and middle class, the less business opportunity you have. I'm not going to use 10 times more uber eats than someone who makes 10 times less than me.

It's not a hard problem to solve in theory. Just figure out how to move money the opposite direction and business will boom! It doesn't even have to be a socialist structure. Maybe we just tax companies for their external negative effects?

41. ddingus ◴[] No.14336797{8}[source]
Yup. I'm in agreement.
42. prostoalex ◴[] No.14337525{11}[source]
> What is replacing the gig economy companies?

That one we do know without a crystal ball - taxi medallion systems and hotels.

43. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14338559{11}[source]
Because it often drives the drive to the bottom