Most active commenters
  • notepad0x90(5)
  • mr_00ff00(3)

←back to thread

129 points surprisetalk | 26 comments | | HN request time: 0.541s | source | bottom
1. notepad0x90 ◴[] No.45962280[source]
amphetamines feel a lot like people putting NO2 on their cars, or overclocking their computers. You might just fine in the end, but the likelihood of wear & tear catching up to you increases. It should be treated just like any other medicine, don't use it unless you really have to, and expect adverse effect (known or unknown).
replies(7): >>45962415 #>>45962802 #>>45962831 #>>45962860 #>>45965076 #>>45968543 #>>45969403 #
2. NilMostChill ◴[] No.45962415[source]
Isn't the whole point of amphetamine based treatement for ADHD to correct(or beneficially alter, depending on your point of view) an non-standard brain chemistry?

AFAIK some neurodivergent brains deal with amphetamines differently and the baseline levels of chemical affected by amphetamines is different.

Wear and tear might be a thing, i don't know, but the analogy of putting NO2 in their car feels a bit off.

It'd be more like finally putting premium unleaded in your car after years of "back of the lorry" pseudo-unleaded.

replies(3): >>45962484 #>>45966873 #>>45970736 #
3. DonaldPShimoda ◴[] No.45962484[source]
I believe parent commenter was referring to recreational use, i.e., use by people without such diagnoses who want a "performance boost". I heard about that sort of thing being popular when I was in college — people would take Adderall to cram for an exam or to study late into the night.

You're right that, for people with ADHD and related disorders, stimulant medication sort of just adjusts their baselines so they can pay attention like a "normal" person.

replies(1): >>45963561 #
4. fragmede ◴[] No.45962802[source]
Is that based on a rigorous PhD level understanding of the neurobiology of the brain and the chemistry behind that particular medication, or just something you absorbed though popular culture, eg movies and Instagram reels?
replies(1): >>45966266 #
5. ◴[] No.45962831[source]
6. throwuxiytayq ◴[] No.45962860[source]
Amphetamines are safe, well-studied and non-addictive at prescribed doses. On the other hand, untreated ADHD VASTLY increases likelihood of addiction and many mental disorders.

Definitely DO use this medication if you need it - it's the first medication your doctor will likely ask you to try precisely because an extensive body of research says it's the most effective way for treating ADHD.

replies(3): >>45963591 #>>45966256 #>>45968733 #
7. raducu ◴[] No.45963561{3}[source]
> You're right that, for people with ADHD and related disorders, stimulant medication sort of just adjusts their baselines so they can pay attention like a "normal" person.

I have ADHD and take metylphenidate(I've tried many kinds of stimulants as well) -- and the NO2 analogy is an imperfect but better analogy than saying stimulants simply adjusts the baseline of people with ADHD to function like "normal" persons.

I feel there is a narrow window of dosage and time where it might feel that way -- i.e. stimulants at the onset might calm you down, reduce anxiety, but all stimulants are very broad hammers.

For me it feels like it's impossible to re-create chemically exactly the neurotypical focus that I've seen in other colleagues.

Like spending 5-6 hours of continous work where you drill down just enough, get back on track, don't get distracted, don't get too anxious, don't get hyperfocused AND do that consistently, day after day after day.

My non-chemical modes are either hyper focus for 2 weeks on a problem, immerse myself but then completely lose interest, most of the time without showing much for it OR procastinate it a long way, get extremely anxious and work really hard on the problem.

With stimulants it's a bit like: - dosed just right:it evaporates anxiety, stressful situations feel easy to deal with, BUT there's always increased heart rate, grinding teeth and some tension at the end of the day - some stimulants make mundane things wildly interesting (on isopropylphenidate I spent a few hours playing with a PLSQL debugger because I thought it was really cool), but no sense of "GO, GO, GO, do it". - some make things seem urgent enough and help stay on track -- like the metylphenidate I'm prescribed. - some make going into a flow-like state easy and fun (like methamphetamine and phenmetrazine). - some are pure energy and urgency -- like modafinil.

All of the stimulants have the potential to give me euphoria, all of them temporarily increase libido I still have to be mindful of not focusing on the wrong thing, the "normal" feeling is very fleeting, it's very easy to get hyper on stimulants, all of them feel like wear & tear at the end of the day, some more than others.

replies(3): >>45964041 #>>45965632 #>>45966790 #
8. graemep ◴[] No.45963591[source]
The "if you need it" is important.

1. People take it as a study drug, without prescription.

2. There may be over medication. Doctors will sometimes feel pushed to prescribe (as is known to happen with antibiotics)

3. At an individual level that is true, but you may need it because of your society and environment. Both ADHD rates and treatment varies between countries (even between regions and states within countries) and has varied a lot over time, which implies some external factor affects it.

replies(2): >>45968773 #>>45970920 #
9. Fr0styMatt88 ◴[] No.45964041{4}[source]
Watching a good friend of mine struggle with this after diagnosis for a few years now and I feel this really captures the nuance and complexity of this struggle well. Stimulants are an incredible tool but also an incredibly imperfect one.
10. potato3732842 ◴[] No.45965076[source]
To continue the analogy, a Dodge Challenger with a 50-shot of nitrous on it that gets used once a day is gonna still come out looking better at any milage/age than the same engine in a Promaster van because you can't drive around at 17k gross in a Challenger so the area under the abuse curve is way lower even if it peaks ever so slightly higher.

An office worker on meth-lite (or whatever you want to call it) is still accumulating less wear and tear than a laborer, something the human body is clearly capable of being for a lifetime if you're somewhat smart about it.

Adderall, caffeine, heck cocaine based stimulants, are probably all fine if you're not over-using the living crap out of them and stacking large amounts of them on top of other things that'll beat the body up over time.

replies(2): >>45966235 #>>45981460 #
11. modo_mario ◴[] No.45965632{4}[source]
I've had similar experiences to you. I never can quite get that normalcy. I now just take rilatin but it is finnicky. Getting enough sleep and eating the right amount of the right stuff just before ingesting is extremely important so I don't even take it all that much even tho i struggle.

I wonder if you tried lisdexamfetamine? I can't get it prescribed easily here since it's not covered the way the alternatives are but someone i know had amazing success with it. Seemingly because it's a prodrug. I can't help but be hopefull that I'll get to try it one day and that it ends up being what I always needed.

replies(2): >>45966097 #>>45973802 #
12. raducu ◴[] No.45966097{5}[source]
> lisdexamfetamine.

It's not legal where I live also, I did try 2-FMA and it felt better in certain scenarios -- like following a hard course, but I also felt the tolerance ramps up much faster in releasers than re-uptake inhibitors so methylphenidate still is a wonderful tool.

13. notepad0x90 ◴[] No.45966235[source]
I don't disagree at all. at medicinal doses, treated as medicine are fine. at higher doses they're addictive and lend themselves to excessive use.
14. notepad0x90 ◴[] No.45966256[source]
> at prescribed doses

If you're getting Adderall from "a guy I know" instead of with a prescription, that's the problem. you keep taking more until you're satisfied.

15. notepad0x90 ◴[] No.45966266[source]
An observation of how our body and machines in general behave under stress, and a skim of the wiki page for amphetamine.
16. hazmazlaz ◴[] No.45968543[source]
It's a good thing that human bodies are not analogous to cars then. The research on these chemicals does not align with your metaphor.
replies(1): >>45972853 #
17. mr_00ff00 ◴[] No.45968733[source]
“non-addictive at prescribed doses”

Less likely to be addictive, definitely not non-addictive.

https://talbottcampus.com/resources/how-adderall-addiction-s...

This has the same energy as the common incorrect statement “marijuana isn’t addictive”. I assume made by frequent users who want to downplay negatives.

18. mr_00ff00 ◴[] No.45968773{3}[source]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna95111

1 out of every 5 Ivy League students is prescribed stimulants.

I think it’s time we stop pretending like prescriptions magically mean the substance isn’t abused or is truly needed.

replies(1): >>45994329 #
19. TurkishPoptart ◴[] No.45969403[source]
What are the "wear & tear" effects of using Adderall and its derivatives as prescribed for many years or decades?
20. standardly ◴[] No.45970736[source]
Eh, for me the comment rings mostly true. It fixed my ADHD - I was incredibly more productive, present, and "on track" so to speak. I set goals for myself and achieved them (some for the first time) once I was treated.

That said, it completely destroyed my appetite. I picked up ciggies, too. It made me crave nicotine and caffeine. I started pulling all-nighters because I was so productive (or, so into whatever game I was playing.) I got cold sweats often and had some weird uh sexual health side effects. Develeoped a tolerance to 5-10mg very quickly, so went up to 15-20mg, which also felt weakened after a month or so.

So, wasn't lolng before I could tell this was not healthy. Felt like I was in overdrive mode - super mentally active, and productive, but running my body into the ground. I would never do it long-term.

21. trashface ◴[] No.45970920{3}[source]
Not sure about over-medication. I think about all the people I used to work with that were absolutely addicted to caffeine, just to get through the day. And the work we were doing (software) didn't seem _that_ boring to me. Some of most hardcore caffeine addicts were from when I worked briefly in game dev (and that was my own peak usage too; now I can't drink coffee due to acid reflux, its also bad for my eyes because I have glaucoma now).

I think untreated attention issues (if not the rather narrowly defined condition labeled "ADHD") are rather widespread. And society doesn't help, just look at the checklist of things you need to do on an ongoing basis to just keep a vehicle running for transport in the US, which pretty much everybody outside a city needs, and even many city dwellers elect to procure as well.

22. notepad0x90 ◴[] No.45972853[source]
i picked cars at random, it could be any machine. I picked overclocking computers as well, maybe that is easier for you to relate the concepts.
23. meeq ◴[] No.45973802{5}[source]
Not the OP, but I‘ve had a rather bad experience with methylphenidate (ritalin) where it made me way more awkward around people, and increased my obsessive tendencies. It did help with focus, but the effects were very short-lived. It also obliterated my hunger and once the effects wore off, it left me feeling semi-depressed until the end of the day.

Once I got prescribed lisdexamphetamine, my life turned around almost instantaneously. While it doesn‘t really get rid of my ADHD, it does help tremendously. The everlasting brainfog isn‘t as debilitating anymore. When I get excited about something I actually tend to follow through. I still battle with my obsessive tendencies — like getting stuck at setting up the perfect project tooling stack or spending way too much time on planning and research instead of just getting to work — but these are not so much related to ADHD.

On lisdexamphetamine, I am more social, my appetite is better, when I actually commit to something, I tend to stick to it for much longer, and I have also picked up a bunch of healthy habits. For example I exercise almost every day now.

If you someday get a chance to switch to lisdex, do it. It’s much smoother, longer-lasting, with fewer side effects. But honestly, anything is better than ritalin in my book.

24. foxyv ◴[] No.45981460[source]
Many people don't realize that any argument they can think of against a given medication has been gone over a thousand times by thousands of medical professionals. The truth is, they just don't trust the medical system as a whole.

Whether that is good or bad stands to be seen. However, I find that people with this position often reject effective and safe treatments along with the more questionable ones.

25. FatherOfCurses ◴[] No.45994329{4}[source]
"1 out of every 5 Ivy League students is prescribed stimulants."

From the third paragraph of the article:

"Researchers analyzed responses from an online questionnaire of more than 600 Ivy League sophomores, juniors and seniors who were not diagnosed with ADHD — attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder — and therefore did not have a prescription for the medication. Writing essays and studying for an exam cause the most angst for students — of those who used stimulants, 69 percent said they used them to stay focused while writing and 66 percent said they used the drugs to help study."

replies(1): >>46060456 #
26. mr_00ff00 ◴[] No.46060456{5}[source]
Fair point, I was incorrect on the exact stat. But it is still very very high for legal prescriptions in the article compared to general populous.