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1424 points moonleay | 33 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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moonleay ◴[] No.45941605[source]
A cool project, when you want to use AirPods outside of Apples ecosystem. Sadly, you have to use a rooted android device with a small patch due to a bug in the Android Bluetooth implementation. https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/371713238
replies(6): >>45942063 #>>45942373 #>>45942451 #>>45943437 #>>45943943 #>>45944340 #
jmgao ◴[] No.45942451[source]
It doesn't seem obvious to me that this is actually a bug in the Android implementation, it seems like this is due to AirPods violating the spec and requiring a special handshake before responding to standard requests. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect Android to work around a device that appears to be intentionally breaking the spec for vendor lock-in purposes: the possibility of them just OTAing an update that breaks in some other way means that you'd have to be entirely bug compatible with iOS's bluetooth implementation.
replies(7): >>45942490 #>>45942736 #>>45942932 #>>45943032 #>>45943140 #>>45944246 #>>45944276 #
1. helsinkiandrew ◴[] No.45942932[source]
Apple have been ‘extending’ the Bluetooth stack for quite awhile. They introduced some BLE features before the spec was finished (I think some 3rd party hearing aids were also compatible).

I haven’t used non apple earphones for awhile but the seamless connectivity performance of AirPods would suggest this was done for performance, not to deliberately lock in devices.

This 2020 paper is great at breaking down some of the extensions: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/woot20-paper-heinze.pdf

replies(1): >>45942970 #
2. xethos ◴[] No.45942970[source]
> They introduced some BLE features before the spec was finished

In their defence, they went with Lightning shortly before the USB-C spec was finalized. Then, to avoid their customers being screwed over by constantly changing the connector, they kind of had to stick with it for a decade.

People will complain if they push features that are ahead of the spec, and they'll complain if they let the spec be finalized before they use it. Being guided by "What's the best we can do for UX, assuming out users are our users in every product category we enter" seems to be their reasonable middle ground.

replies(3): >>45943026 #>>45943116 #>>45943132 #
3. bmandale ◴[] No.45943026[source]
both scenarios speak to either an incredible impatience, or deliberate incompatibility to tie people to their ecosystem.
4. binkHN ◴[] No.45943116[source]
If Apple wasn't forced by the EU, they would try to preserve their walled garden as much as possible. iMessage is the prime example of this.
replies(1): >>45946285 #
5. vee-kay ◴[] No.45943132[source]
The only reason Apple ditched Lightning port and finally gave USB-C port in the iDevices, is because EU forced Apple to do so. But do you think your oh-so-common USB-C cables will work with a new iPhone?

In my country (India), Apple still doesn't sell charger and cable along with its new iDevices, even though those gadgets are exorbitantly expensive. And Apple doesn't allow custom repair here, even though my country mandated the Right to Repair, like EU did so. My old Mac Mini 2012 is gathering dust in a cupboard, because Apple service center refused to upgrade it to new RAM and new SATA SSD, citing Apple policies.

replies(4): >>45943219 #>>45943729 #>>45943800 #>>45946272 #
6. ffsm8 ◴[] No.45943219{3}[source]
Couldn't you just upgrade yourself in the pre Apple silicone days?

Like within minutes, with no big changes?

I didn't think it's rare that a company refuses to do any work on devices they no longer support. Their employees will no longer be trained to do this work, hence they'd have a nontrivial chance of causing damages. That's exactly why a right to repair is so important, so that other people can pick up their slack

replies(1): >>45943535 #
7. lloeki ◴[] No.45943535{4}[source]
Back when RAM and HDD were using standard parts, Apple packaged manuals with documentation as to how to proceed to such upgrades.
8. theodric ◴[] No.45943729{3}[source]
What? Upgrade it yourself! Swapping the RAM in a mini 2012 doesn't even require tools. Both SoDIMMs are right under the bottom cover.

The SSD is a bit more fiddly, but can also be done at home. Check iFixit.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac+mini+Late+2012+Hard+Drive+R...

replies(1): >>45944130 #
9. monerozcash ◴[] No.45943800{3}[source]
>But do you think your oh-so-common USB-C cables will work with a new iPhone?

They seem to work just fine, yeah.

replies(1): >>45944377 #
10. vee-kay ◴[] No.45944130{4}[source]
That iFixit guide to upgrade the Max Mini is daunting for newbies.

But you've inspired me to gather courage and do the DIY upgrade myself next month during the holidays. No use having a working PC lying unused, merely because it is very sluggish due to old hardware. Wish me luck (for the upgrade), I think I'll need it.

replies(1): >>45946467 #
11. toyg ◴[] No.45944377{4}[source]
"Seem". Until they don't. I've had multiple instances of Airpods stopping to connect with phones until I charged them at least once with original Apple cables. They might work fine for months, then stop ehaving unless connected through an all-Apple power pipeline (cable and charger). It's probably firmware updates requiring some sort of validation every now and then.
replies(3): >>45946662 #>>45957773 #>>45958384 #
12. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946272{3}[source]
The higher end iPads started coming with USB C long before the EU mandate
replies(2): >>45947249 #>>45953913 #
13. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946285{3}[source]
Can another company federate with WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger?
replies(1): >>45946590 #
14. kronks ◴[] No.45946467{5}[source]
You’re just limiting yourself for no reason. It’s not Apples fault that you are sitting in front of an un-upgraded computer that is tool-less (for one of your tasks, at least) and has step by step instructions meant for beginners.
15. littlecranky67 ◴[] No.45946590{4}[source]
Yes, because the EU mandated them to. Just no one seems to want to federate.
replies(1): >>45946663 #
16. oofbey ◴[] No.45946662{5}[source]
Sounds like you have a flaky / damaged device or bad cables. If there really was some kind of conspiratorial timer requiring you to use 1P cables it would certainly be documented. Can’t hide that stuff. Loads of people use Apple devices with 3P cables all the time and they work just fine, as long as the cables aren’t junk. There really are quality and capability differences in USB C cables. Just because it looks right and physically connects doesn’t mean it can electrically do all the things.
17. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946663{5}[source]
And you are perfectly capable of interacting with iMessage users now through SMS/MMS/RCS
replies(2): >>45947265 #>>45948932 #
18. monocasa ◴[] No.45947249{4}[source]
That seemed like a product segmentation choice to encourage more laptop like use cases out of the higher end iPads.

Less friction for devices like passkeys, external hard drives, etc.

It doesn't seem like they were keen on moving that down the product line since they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do so.

19. monocasa ◴[] No.45947265{6}[source]
Their RCS implementation is so incredibly broken, and I can tell as an Android user.

It seems like every other message gets downgraded to SMS.

replies(1): >>45950509 #
20. array_key_first ◴[] No.45948932{6}[source]
Yes, except that SMS/MMS sucks major ass, and RCS is really, really bad too. Not as awful as SMS, but close, and missing various barebones features.

That's not Apple's fault per se, but of course, they contribute to it. They should open up the iMessage protocol.

replies(1): >>45949215 #
21. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45949215{7}[source]
So what you are saying is that for Apple to create a better experience, they have to add to the industry standard - the same as AirPods.
replies(1): >>45949266 #
22. array_key_first ◴[] No.45949266{8}[source]
Yes, that would be mutually beneficial both for Apple customers and people who are not Apple customers.
replies(1): >>45949978 #
23. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45949978{9}[source]
Why is that on Apple instead of the hundreds of other manufacturers and Google? If Google wants a better ecosystem, it’s on them since according to them Android was suppose to be the “definition of open”.
replies(1): >>45950523 #
24. xethos ◴[] No.45950509{7}[source]
That's because SMS is a horribly broken, hacky standard, and RCS has to inherit and deal with all the horrifying edge-cases of SMS, MMS, and legacy cruft going back prior to the turn of the millenium.

Then it has to accomodate every other intersted party, many of which hate each other. Apple has always been a bit of an odd duck ("Think Different" has been internalized for some time), but Verizon actively hates OTT messaging as they can't charge for it. Samsung would rather run their own RCS implementation to create and advertise "Samsung RCS", and Google can't push too hard without getting EU attention for antitrust (again).

RCS has been stuck in limbo-hell for years for multiple reasons, none of which are easy.

replies(1): >>45956467 #
25. xethos ◴[] No.45950523{10}[source]
Because while Android is "open", Google has no carrot (Verizon can't charge for OTT messaging and has no major incentive to push it), and no stick (pushing too hard will draw regulators' attention again)

RCS has been stuck in limbo-hell for several years, and I expect it to stay that way (to your point, I expect it to stay that way even if Apple chips in)

replies(1): >>45951060 #
26. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45951060{11}[source]
Google has a big stick - Google Play Services. They use it all of the time to get manufacturers to do what they want.
27. extraduder_ire ◴[] No.45953913{4}[source]
That was a much easier way to get usb3 on them than the special lightning port + cables they tried earlier.
28. monocasa ◴[] No.45956467{8}[source]
The specific issue I'm talking about is how Apple for some reason ties the presence of RCS persistently to a contact that requires the user to manually go in and adjust, otherwise the conversation switches back and forth between SMS and RCS as each participant texts back and forth.

This is a problem no other vendors have, and is solely caused by Apple.

https://www.androidauthority.com/android-iphone-rcs-messagin...

29. eigencoder ◴[] No.45957773{5}[source]
I think this is a problem with USB-C. The cables all look the same, but they don't actually always work for every device, at least in my experience.
30. vee-kay ◴[] No.45958384{5}[source]
I know that Apple MFI certified Lightning cables work well with iDevices, but I found that third-party non-MFI-certified Lightning cables to be finicky with iDevices. But I never faced such problem with USB cables for non-Apple devices (Android phones, cameras, etc.).

Apple MFI certifies USB-C cables also, so I'm not sure if it is throttling its iDevices to be finicky with non-MFI USB-C cables.

I know for a fact that Apple did software updates to older iPhones to make them sluggish and drain battery quickly. I realised this when I went to Apple Genius Bar to get my iPhone 7 Plus battery replaced after it started draining too quickly daily, but even with new battery same problem persisted. The friendly staff member unofficially told me it is because of the recent software updates by Apple for older iPhones, and advised not to hold out hope that any future software update will fix the problem. Even a year later, his warning remained true. I gave away the iPhone to my nephew as a backup device for his studies, but he sold it soon, as it was a nightmare to keep charging it frequently.

Apple has faced multiple fines for deliberately slowing down older iPhones without informing users, including a €25 million fine in France and a $41 million fine for deceptive marketing practices. The company admitted to slowing down devices to prevent unexpected shutdowns due to aging batteries, but critics argued it was misleading.

These days, I wouldn't trust Apple with a barge pole, let alone the money from my wallet.

replies(1): >>45958789 #
31. monerozcash ◴[] No.45958789{6}[source]
>Apple has faced multiple fines for deliberately slowing down older iPhones without informing users, including a €25 million fine in France and a $41 million fine for deceptive marketing practices. The company admitted to slowing down devices to prevent unexpected shutdowns due to aging batteries, but critics argued it was misleading.

These cases are much less convincing than they may seem if you just take a moment to read about them. iDevices would throttle the cpu to make the battery last longer as it's capacity falls, this kind of throttling is not uncommon and not malicious.

This wasn't misleading, and isn't something that warrants any genuine criticism.

replies(1): >>45961608 #
32. vee-kay ◴[] No.45961608{7}[source]
In my experience, the only 2 mobile phone companies whose phones drain battery too fast are Apple and Samsung. Apple does this deliberately for older phones, whereas Samsung has this problem even for new phones.

You will not find this quick battery drain problem in Motorola, Nokia, Oppo, Sony, etc. Their phones last several years even with ageing batteries. An 10+ years old Oppo phone I have, still holds almost full charge at idle, throughout the day.

As batteries get older, their capacity to hold charge reduces, but if a phone battery is draining too fast even in idle mode, it is likely due to software, not hardware. And if it is due to software, then the manufacturer company is to blame.

replies(1): >>45966679 #
33. monerozcash ◴[] No.45966679{8}[source]
I don't think you can find any evidence of a Apple actually deliberately doing things to make batteries drain faster on older models.

That would either require hurting the battery life on all models or require distinguishable behaviours that only occur on specific models and would be relatively simple to prove through reverse engineering.

Apple has been fined for the throttling, but hasn't ever been credibly accused of actually deliberately taking steps to reduce battery life on older devices.