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1424 points moonleay | 122 comments | | HN request time: 0.981s | source | bottom
1. moonleay ◴[] No.45941605[source]
A cool project, when you want to use AirPods outside of Apples ecosystem. Sadly, you have to use a rooted android device with a small patch due to a bug in the Android Bluetooth implementation. https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/371713238
replies(6): >>45942063 #>>45942373 #>>45942451 #>>45943437 #>>45943943 #>>45944340 #
2. cbsks ◴[] No.45942063[source]
That is such a typical bug report to a large company. A user who spent a lot of time debugging and finding the root cause of an issue, and a few faceless peons at the large company spending a few minutes on it, realizing it’s not a priority, and abandoning it.
replies(3): >>45942089 #>>45942124 #>>45942183 #
3. fragmede ◴[] No.45942089[source]
And not a small bug either. This large an interoperability issue and it takes a nerd not in the employ of Google to fix their shit? This is why Apple's vertical integration makes it one of richest companies in the world. Google's only up there because of their success in that one business of theirs.
replies(1): >>45942113 #
4. mhluongo ◴[] No.45942113{3}[source]
Funny, I was under the impression that Apple's stuff is closed source, so no one outside their employ even could fix a similar issue?
replies(3): >>45942132 #>>45942384 #>>45942562 #
5. fragmede ◴[] No.45942132{4}[source]
What does Apple being Apple have to do with Google not paying somebody to work on getting Airpods, which presumably should conform to some Bluetooth spec, in order to get Airpods to work on Android?
replies(1): >>45942395 #
6. netsharc ◴[] No.45942183[source]
Ah, when "open source" means begging an advertisement company to bless your code changes...
replies(2): >>45942386 #>>45943040 #
7. Andrex ◴[] No.45942373[source]
I'm convinced it's impossible to implement the BT spec without MANY of these kinds of bugs popping up.

Apple mercy-killed Adobe Flash, we should be asking they do the same to Bluetooth. I'm sick of living in a reality where no one thinks to make something better. It has to be possible.

replies(3): >>45942402 #>>45943295 #>>45943476 #
8. butvacuum ◴[] No.45942384{4}[source]
Apparently, android isn't fixing it either.
9. charcircuit ◴[] No.45942386{3}[source]
It was a hack. An actual code change would be submitted via the gerrit and not buganizer.

https://android-review.googlesource.com/q/status:open+-is:wi...

replies(1): >>45943569 #
10. catlikesshrimp ◴[] No.45942395{5}[source]
>>...due to a bug in the Android Bluetooth implementation.

The issue can be resolved because an android bug can be debugged by a contributor. A similar issue can't even be analyzed from the apple side by anyone but an apple employee.

We are assuming there are bugs in iOS, but their closed sourceness can mislead people to believe there aren't. Then, yes, their vertical integration makes them rich, which in this case is bad for users, in the guise of being good.

11. SilverElfin ◴[] No.45942402[source]
Mercy killed? Flash was great. There were so many inventive games and animations in that era. Apple didn’t mercy kill anything - they just removed a threat to their walled garden ecosystem using their anticompetitive position, but dressed it up as a security issue.
replies(10): >>45942413 #>>45942465 #>>45942494 #>>45942541 #>>45942577 #>>45942835 #>>45942907 #>>45942943 #>>45943049 #>>45943407 #
12. baby_souffle ◴[] No.45942413{3}[source]
> Flash was great.

It had a great number of CVEs, you mean?

_modern_ HTML and JS have eclipsed flash in all meaningful ways.

replies(1): >>45943047 #
13. jmgao ◴[] No.45942451[source]
It doesn't seem obvious to me that this is actually a bug in the Android implementation, it seems like this is due to AirPods violating the spec and requiring a special handshake before responding to standard requests. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect Android to work around a device that appears to be intentionally breaking the spec for vendor lock-in purposes: the possibility of them just OTAing an update that breaks in some other way means that you'd have to be entirely bug compatible with iOS's bluetooth implementation.
replies(7): >>45942490 #>>45942736 #>>45942932 #>>45943032 #>>45943140 #>>45944246 #>>45944276 #
14. Spooky23 ◴[] No.45942465{3}[source]
Mercy.

Flash had an awesome ecosystem. But it was too fragile, and Adobe is too incompetent of a company to be a good steward of that kind of tech.

15. itsnoone ◴[] No.45942490[source]
It not that hard to imagine Apple going out of their way to do something that would break functionality on Android, honestly. Although, I believe Fluoride also is to be blamed here because a simple timeout can not possible cause any issues (it seems that a timeout is there, but never called- at least from my tinkering). I am not planning to spend a single second tracing back the actual problem and suggesting a fix, given that Google just asked me to reproduce twice (!!) and did nothing about it.
16. kalleboo ◴[] No.45942494{3}[source]
Flash the authoring suite was great

Flash the player was insecure unoptimized laggy garbage

17. tshaddox ◴[] No.45942541{3}[source]
Nah, Flash was awful. Terrible performance on low end devices. Unforgivably terrible for web video. Nightmare on Linux. Nightmare in enterprise environments.

There were cool games, but there still are cool games. And the indie/hacker/homebrew gaming ecosystems are bigger, richer, and more accessible than ever (due in no small part to the web, both as a gaming platform and for learning/community).

replies(2): >>45942642 #>>45942864 #
18. justinclift ◴[] No.45942562{4}[source]
Bearing in mind that Apple does Open Source some stuff: https://opensource.apple.com/projects

They also Open Source the base OS layer pieces for macOS too:

* https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/

* https://opensource.apple.com/releases/

I don't keep any kind of close eye on this stuff though.

19. theshackleford ◴[] No.45942577{3}[source]
You’re entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else and my opinion is that flash was dogshit and I’m glad it had a bullet put in it.
20. joezydeco ◴[] No.45942642{4}[source]
I had a chance to read the Adobe FlashLite Player source code once. Holy shit.
21. a13n ◴[] No.45942736[source]
is there evidence it’s for vendor lock in purposes? airpods have a pretty stellar connection for bluetooth, wouldn’t be surprised if there were performance reasons for them going off spec
replies(7): >>45942851 #>>45942878 #>>45943031 #>>45943234 #>>45943236 #>>45943578 #>>45943875 #
22. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45942835{3}[source]
Adobe said it was only because of mean old Apple that they couldn’t get it to run on the original iPhone. When it finally came to Android around 2010, it barely ran on a 1Ghz Android phone with 1GB of RAM.

Mind you that the first iPhone cake with 128MB RAM with a 400Mhz processor.

An iPhone with the theoretical specs didn’t come out until 2011.

Also see the first “iPad Killer” the Motorola Xoom’s marquee feature was suppose to be that it could run Flash. But Adobe was late releasing the Xoom in the unenviable problem of that you couldn’t view its home page on the device.

23. indentit ◴[] No.45942851{3}[source]
Specifications are there for a reason... Why use Bluetooth at all if they don't actually use it properly?
replies(4): >>45942971 #>>45943014 #>>45943123 #>>45943227 #
24. MattRix ◴[] No.45942864{4}[source]
This take doesn’t make sense unless you’re comparing Flash to current technology, rather than the tech of its time. It’s like saying CD players were awful: sure they’re awful NOW, but they had a time and a place when they were the coolest thing around.

Similarly, the only reason Flash had “bad performance” on low end devices is because people were using it to do stuff that web tech could not do. It took over a decade for web tech to catch up, and 20 years later we still don’t have tooling that’s as good as Flash was (other than Adobe Animate itself).

Calling it “terrible for video” is completely backwards! Flash became the standard for video on the web for years because everything else was terrible and Flash was the only thing that worked. There’s a reason that YouTube used Flash to play videos for the first ten years.

replies(2): >>45943329 #>>45946637 #
25. wolpoli ◴[] No.45942878{3}[source]
Apple is a promoter member of the Bluetooth standard organization for a while now, so it could submit that as an enhancement.
26. ptrl600 ◴[] No.45942907{3}[source]
Yeah it was superb for the layman.

If there's ever a project for an alternative OSS Flash authoring tool, something intended to be as accessible as Flash 5 or so, I'd love to contribute somehow

27. helsinkiandrew ◴[] No.45942932[source]
Apple have been ‘extending’ the Bluetooth stack for quite awhile. They introduced some BLE features before the spec was finished (I think some 3rd party hearing aids were also compatible).

I haven’t used non apple earphones for awhile but the seamless connectivity performance of AirPods would suggest this was done for performance, not to deliberately lock in devices.

This 2020 paper is great at breaking down some of the extensions: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/woot20-paper-heinze.pdf

replies(1): >>45942970 #
28. kmeisthax ◴[] No.45942943{3}[source]
As someone who did a bunch of work on Ruffle a while back, "mercy kill" is almost the correct word. There's about a decade it spent rotting before the actual kill, and Apple's not the one who fired the final shot. I've heard stories from both the Apple and Adobe side on this, but basically both companies wanted Flash on iOS and neither of them were capable of actually shipping a good version of it.

Apple begged Adobe to ship a working Flash mobile build at least four times and each time they rejected it for all sorts of various UX or performance issues. At one point Apple asked for and was delivered Flash Player source code, which they reportedly couldn't get to compile. Adobe tried to brand Flash as an open standard, and then went over Apple's head by just shipping an AIR runtime that could be packaged into an IPA and submitted to Apple. Jobs then wrote the infamous "Thoughts on Flash" letter, which was really there to justify going scorched-earth and banning all third-party development tools. This only lasted for about three months before the Obama DOJ threatened to sue[0].

Also, Steve Jobs was probably pissed off that he couldn't get the CEO of Adobe on speed-dial. At that point in time everyone involved with shipping iPhone software was in his contacts and in regular contact with him. Google logo looks weird on the phone screen? Have Jobs call Page and get it fixed in 10 minutes.

As it stood after that moment, Flash was a viable development platform for iPhone apps and remained so for many years. This is entirely separate from its use in the browser. Practically speaking, you have probably played plenty of Flash games on iOS without even knowing it, because all the hard work of building touch-friendly UX and a performant UI was shunted over to the developers of individual games rather than trying to make, say, the core Flash rendering model GPU capable[1].

Adobe then shipped Flash Player for Android to huge fanfare, and it sucked just as hard as it did on Apple's dev iPhones and was unceremoniously canned a year later.

At this point it was obvious Flash Player needed a rewrite, even within Adobe, so they announced "FP Next" along with an AS4 language for new movies to run in. Except the Adobe execs were angry about the cost so they tried to shake down their customers for the funds. They wanted any cross-compiled 3D engine code to have to pay a revshare to Adobe. Everyone jumped ship to Unity, so Adobe canned the revshare requirement... and FP Next/AS4, the thing that was supposed to modernize Flash's aging codebase.

And then right after Adobe starts disinvesting from Flash, a bunch of CVEs land and all the browser vendors pushed hard to actually, once and for all, excise plugins from the browser. That was the actual mercy kill, but it was preceded by almost a decade in which all the people who knew how Flash actually worked didn't have the budget to fix it, and all the people who wanted it fixed didn't have the expertise to do it.

[0] For the record, Obama was the guy who saw Zuckerberg illegally buying Instagram to keep people from moving off of Facebook and said "sure thing, wave it through".

[1] There's an AS3 project called Starling that gives you hardware rendering by pre-rendering a bunch of assets in advance into bitmaps, which kind of betrays the whole point of Flash. But I also can't imagine Adobe doing it any other way as the Flash renderer was both highly optimized and bespoke.

replies(1): >>45943482 #
29. xethos ◴[] No.45942970{3}[source]
> They introduced some BLE features before the spec was finished

In their defence, they went with Lightning shortly before the USB-C spec was finalized. Then, to avoid their customers being screwed over by constantly changing the connector, they kind of had to stick with it for a decade.

People will complain if they push features that are ahead of the spec, and they'll complain if they let the spec be finalized before they use it. Being guided by "What's the best we can do for UX, assuming out users are our users in every product category we enter" seems to be their reasonable middle ground.

replies(3): >>45943026 #>>45943116 #>>45943132 #
30. helsinkiandrew ◴[] No.45942971{4}[source]
You can still connect AirPods to an android device using Bluetooth, you just don’t get the seamless connection or support for Spatial Audio that use the extended protocols
replies(1): >>45943582 #
31. Aurornis ◴[] No.45943014{4}[source]
> Why use Bluetooth at all if they don't actually use it properly?

Because they needed a way to get audio to the AirPods wirelessly and to work with their devices? That’s a pretty good reason to use Bluetooth.

I doubt they got together and tried to scheme a way to break Bluetooth in this one tiny little way for vendor lock in. You can use the basic AirPod features with other Bluetooth devices. It’s just these extended features that were never developed for other platforms.

HN comments lean heavily conspiratorial but I think the obvious explanation is that the devs built and tested it against iPhone and Mac targets and optimized for that. This minor discrepancy wasn’t worked around because it isn’t triggered on Apple platforms and it’s not a target for them.

replies(2): >>45943734 #>>45944523 #
32. bmandale ◴[] No.45943026{4}[source]
both scenarios speak to either an incredible impatience, or deliberate incompatibility to tie people to their ecosystem.
33. Aurornis ◴[] No.45943031{3}[source]
I doubt it’s for any reason at all. The obvious explanation is that they just developed and tested these extra firmware features against Apple devices because that was the product decision. Since nobody was tasked with targeting Android they might not have even noticed that it wasn’t perfectly spec-compliant if those states were never encountered, nor expected to be encountered.
34. baxtr ◴[] No.45943032[source]
when you’ve worked long enough in any given industry you know that all companies "violate" standards to satisfy requirements of their product management.
35. Aurornis ◴[] No.45943040{3}[source]
Not really. There wasn’t a true patch attempt submitted, as far as I can see. There was some helpful info about how commenting out a couple lines could work around the issue, but doing a real engineering evaluation to check spec compliance and make sure it’s all covered in the Bluetooth testing infrastructure is a much bigger task.
36. ezst ◴[] No.45943047{4}[source]
By stitching together an inconsistent hodgepodge of sometimes overlapping languages, technologies and APIs. On the user-side, I'm glad I don't need a proprietary player for such things any longer, but I sure hate doing anything remotely touching Web, in particular for the kind of highly interactive experiences Flash was good at.

In truth, the Web has eclipsed Flash, the player, but not the product.

37. Aurornis ◴[] No.45943049{3}[source]
I’m amazed by the retconning of Flash into a great system.

I agree that some of the content produced in that era was great and it was nice to have tools available, but using Flash and doing the whole browser plugin thing was not great at all.

It’s actually great now that we have actual standards compliant ways of doing animations and other things in the browser without restricting it to one company’s little domain that must be used as a plugin for browsers.

replies(1): >>45943572 #
38. binkHN ◴[] No.45943116{4}[source]
If Apple wasn't forced by the EU, they would try to preserve their walled garden as much as possible. iMessage is the prime example of this.
replies(1): >>45946285 #
39. binkHN ◴[] No.45943123{4}[source]
This is Microsoft's playbook from many years ago: embrace, extend, extinguish.
40. vee-kay ◴[] No.45943132{4}[source]
The only reason Apple ditched Lightning port and finally gave USB-C port in the iDevices, is because EU forced Apple to do so. But do you think your oh-so-common USB-C cables will work with a new iPhone?

In my country (India), Apple still doesn't sell charger and cable along with its new iDevices, even though those gadgets are exorbitantly expensive. And Apple doesn't allow custom repair here, even though my country mandated the Right to Repair, like EU did so. My old Mac Mini 2012 is gathering dust in a cupboard, because Apple service center refused to upgrade it to new RAM and new SATA SSD, citing Apple policies.

replies(4): >>45943219 #>>45943729 #>>45943800 #>>45946272 #
41. jauntywundrkind ◴[] No.45943140[source]
In general, rigidity of stack is a malfeasance. Over protecting the user brings fragility, un-adaptability, that curses the world. Android certainly is a rigid narrow protective stack that refuses to accommodate, again and again. Different genre, but decades latter and it still won't work on many ipv6 networks because for no clearly stated reason it won't support DHCPv6: Android is full of these weirdly unstated "principled" anti-compatibilities, and I can't excuse blaming the devices or networks for being what they are: it's the unbending rigid OS that offends me.

I do rather hope perhaps perhaps perhaps the EU & DMA or other may perhaps bend Apple off their rotten course of making non-standard bespoke systems. It seems like very recently the EU is getting ready to cave & abandon all their demands for trying to use standards, that their fear of the US is about to make them fold on insisting upon better. Demanding Apple stop doing everything in bespoke incompatible ways is something that should have happened a long time ago, imo, and it's so horrifying to see one of the only stands in my lifetime against the propeietarization & domination of systems by a bespoke corporate lord abandoned.

There's some rays of hope here & there. Seemoo Lab has a ton of amazing reverse engineering efforts, figuring out how many many many undocumented locked down Apple systems & protocols work & trying to give control back. This is the highest virtue, the best hacker nature. Here's Open Wireless Link, but they have so many other amazing projects they've similarly figured out out to pry open. Amazing best human spirit. https://github.com/seemoo-lab/owl

42. ffsm8 ◴[] No.45943219{5}[source]
Couldn't you just upgrade yourself in the pre Apple silicone days?

Like within minutes, with no big changes?

I didn't think it's rare that a company refuses to do any work on devices they no longer support. Their employees will no longer be trained to do this work, hence they'd have a nontrivial chance of causing damages. That's exactly why a right to repair is so important, so that other people can pick up their slack

replies(1): >>45943535 #
43. fouc ◴[] No.45943227{4}[source]
Perhaps Apple correctly implemented the specification here
44. fouc ◴[] No.45943234{3}[source]
Assuming they even went off spec at all.
45. potatoproduct ◴[] No.45943236{3}[source]
Performance reasons LOL. Apple fans love plausible deniability.
replies(1): >>45946226 #
46. yard2010 ◴[] No.45943295[source]
Apple killed flash and an alternative has not emerged decades later. Please don't give these pricks ideas.
replies(2): >>45943763 #>>45949366 #
47. larusso ◴[] No.45943329{5}[source]
It’s one of the topics I feel I’m too biased since I spend 10 years as a flash developer. The requests for widgets and or small applications we got where simply impossible to write in a frontend only fashion at the time. And a lot of my peers moved on to work on HTML5 which was pushed hard as the successor at the time. A lot felt like a step back. I moved to native iOS and worked on games in cocoa 2D. I remember that I thought more than once: “This was already solved in flash”. But I think in the end it’s a good thing that we don’t have or need the flash player anymore. I wish only we could have gotten a flash to wasm/webgl compiler or flash to js transpiler. ActionScript 3 was great and leagues ahead of JavaScript at the time.
replies(1): >>45945170 #
48. ◴[] No.45943407{3}[source]
49. WithinReason ◴[] No.45943437[source]
Last 2 comments:

> Need fix please

> original engineers got laid off thats why

50. mschuster91 ◴[] No.45943476[source]
> Apple mercy-killed Adobe Flash, we should be asking they do the same to Bluetooth.

They won't, because it turns out Bluetooth is the best thing we have at "discover nearby devices". Guess how Apple TV/screen sharing detection, iPhone hotspot detection and configuration, AirDrop and a whole host of other features work without communicating via some cloud mothership? They are all using Bluetooth to do detection and negotiation to a high-bandwidth link!

Amongst widespread radio communication mechanisms, there are only NFC, Bluetooth and WiFi. NFC is sometimes used to provision wifi passwords, but it's short-range to the tune of a few cm tops. WiFi has discovery, but nothing in the protocol to make sure initial conversations cannot be eavesdropped, and low-power wifi stacks are hard to do, in contrast to Bluetooth with BTLE.

replies(1): >>45949386 #
51. mschuster91 ◴[] No.45943482{4}[source]
Thanks for the writeup. Dear God, Adobe's leadership appears to have been completely bonkers...

I wonder why they didn't just go and open-source the entire damn thing, all its commercial value has been lost anyway.

replies(1): >>45989015 #
52. lloeki ◴[] No.45943535{6}[source]
Back when RAM and HDD were using standard parts, Apple packaged manuals with documentation as to how to proceed to such upgrades.
53. IshKebab ◴[] No.45943569{4}[source]
Yeah except nobody is going to put the effort in to do that because they know it will be ignored.

I tried back in the day.

54. IshKebab ◴[] No.45943572{4}[source]
Yeah I wonder if these people ever actually used Flash YouTube on Android. It was awful.
55. gf000 ◴[] No.45943578{3}[source]
if (name == 'APPLE') will surely improve performance.
56. gf000 ◴[] No.45943582{5}[source]
You can't even change noise cancel's mode.
replies(1): >>45944454 #
57. theodric ◴[] No.45943729{5}[source]
What? Upgrade it yourself! Swapping the RAM in a mini 2012 doesn't even require tools. Both SoDIMMs are right under the bottom cover.

The SSD is a bit more fiddly, but can also be done at home. Check iFixit.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac+mini+Late+2012+Hard+Drive+R...

replies(1): >>45944130 #
58. dabinat ◴[] No.45943734{5}[source]
It reminds me of the USB keyboard extender that came with old Macs. There’s a little notch in the socket so you can only use it with Apple keyboards. At the time I thought it was a petty way of preventing you from using it with any other device, but apparently the reason they didn’t want you to use it with other devices is because the cable didn’t comply with the USB spec.

Some pictures here: https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/b1u08k/this_...

replies(2): >>45951069 #>>45952455 #
59. dabinat ◴[] No.45943763{3}[source]
Are HTML5 video, canvas and WebGL not replacements? What in particular do you feel has not been replaced?
replies(1): >>45951137 #
60. monerozcash ◴[] No.45943800{5}[source]
>But do you think your oh-so-common USB-C cables will work with a new iPhone?

They seem to work just fine, yeah.

replies(1): >>45944377 #
61. fingerlocks ◴[] No.45943875{3}[source]
No there isn’t. I’ve said this a million times before, but usually just downvoted: this is about reducing support costs, not increasing revenue from lock-in. This is not a theory, I’ve sat in meetings at Cupertino and been told first hand.

Support is very expensive. Say what you want about Apple, but they provide absolutely stellar support, especially with the stupidly inexpensive Apple Care insurance. This is only cost effective if they can make reasonable predictions about how their devices will behave in any given scenario. Interfacing Apple hardware with non-certified (MFi, BLE, etc) third party hardware has a non-trivial risk of unpredictability high support costs, either from excessive Apple Care claims, customer support communications, or just overloading the Genius Bar.

Reducing support cost could easily explain the motivation of the entire walled garden if they are sufficiently high.

replies(2): >>45944506 #>>45944883 #
62. KolibriFly ◴[] No.45943943[source]
Still, it's kind of amazing that one person hacked around both Apple's walled garden and Android's jank to make this work at all
replies(1): >>45944468 #
63. vee-kay ◴[] No.45944130{6}[source]
That iFixit guide to upgrade the Max Mini is daunting for newbies.

But you've inspired me to gather courage and do the DIY upgrade myself next month during the holidays. No use having a working PC lying unused, merely because it is very sluggish due to old hardware. Wish me luck (for the upgrade), I think I'll need it.

replies(1): >>45946467 #
64. alickz ◴[] No.45944246[source]
You make a good point

Though I wonder why it works with Linux, which I assume doesn't have code for a special handshake specific to AirPods

65. jorvi ◴[] No.45944276[source]
Google works around a ton of out-of-spec hardware / driver quirks for Android's ExoPlayer media player stack. So it is more than reasonable to expect Google to add a workaround for this.
66. dotancohen ◴[] No.45944340[source]
Any idea how much latency there is between the beginning of audio being played in an app, and it then coming out the headset?

I use wired headphones to study with Anki (AnkiDroid) because I've found most (inexpensive) Bluetooth headphones require a second or two to begin playing. As I'm dealing with short audio clips, this use case necessitates restarting the "audio playing" situation every few seconds.

Maybe the app developers could "play" quiet audio between these short clips. But barring such a development, I'd like to know if higher quality headphones might suffer from less latency in this regard.

replies(3): >>45944530 #>>45945019 #>>45948610 #
67. toyg ◴[] No.45944377{6}[source]
"Seem". Until they don't. I've had multiple instances of Airpods stopping to connect with phones until I charged them at least once with original Apple cables. They might work fine for months, then stop ehaving unless connected through an all-Apple power pipeline (cable and charger). It's probably firmware updates requiring some sort of validation every now and then.
replies(3): >>45946662 #>>45957773 #>>45958384 #
68. gf000 ◴[] No.45944454{6}[source]
It's just on and off, and doesn't let you choose between the different ones (transparency, conversation aware, etc)
69. worldsavior ◴[] No.45944468[source]
It's not really hard to reverse engineer AirPods. Just watch the bluetooth communication between a mac and the AirPods, turn specific features on/off, see how it reacts, then replicate exactly. I wanted to do it myself but saw something like this already exists (librepods, previously called "Airpods like normal (aln)").
70. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.45944506{4}[source]
They couldn't just write (and make people aware at point of sale, ofc) 'no support for using devices with non-Apple Computers products' into Apple Care. They had to purposely break compatibility?
71. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.45944523{5}[source]
>doubt they got together and tried to scheme a way to break Bluetooth in this one tiny little way for vendor lock in.

No conspiracy needed, surely it would be unilateral? It seems exactly the sort of thing Apple Computers would do to protect their ecosystem.

72. frumiousirc ◴[] No.45944530[source]
> I use wired headphones to study with Anki (AnkiDroid) because I've found most (inexpensive) Bluetooth headphones require a second or two to begin playing.

1-2 seconds is an eon for audio latency so I guess something else is going on than anything BT related in the headphones. Unless you have particularly bad luck in what headphones you use.

FWIW, I use a variety of cheap and not so cheap BT headphones across multiple devices and apps including AnkiDroid and have not perceived any latency.

If switching to wired removes the latency then it does seem to indicate something in the BT stack of your device. I wonder if you experience the lag when using AnkiDroid + BT on another device.

replies(1): >>45944560 #
73. dotancohen ◴[] No.45944560{3}[source]
Thank you. I actually have since switched devices, but have not yet tested on the new device. The old device was a flagship phone, the Note 10 Lite. That phone served me well for four years, I'll test on the S24 Ultra that just replaced it. Thank you.
74. bubblethink ◴[] No.45944883{4}[source]
That's tautological. Everything that is not supported is so because supporting it has a cost. The question is what is the cost? It seems quite obvious that the marginal revenue from airpods would be overshadowed by the revenue of getting a user in the ecosystem.
replies(2): >>45947133 #>>45948405 #
75. AshamedCaptain ◴[] No.45945019[source]
This is your host idling the connection due to the silence. Just keep something playing (like a stream of almost-silence) on loop and you won't have this problem.
replies(1): >>45945818 #
76. MattRix ◴[] No.45945170{6}[source]
Yup, this was my career path as well. I worked professionally as a Flash developer for many years but gradually that became more of an iOS developer role and I made games using Cocos2D etc.
77. dotancohen ◴[] No.45945818{3}[source]
Yes, but I was asking if high quality or newer Bluetooth audio devices have a lower latency.

I will suggest to the app developers to add optional silence. Thank you.

replies(1): >>45946063 #
78. sudosysgen ◴[] No.45946063{4}[source]
Yes, there are newer Bluetooth headphones with significantly lower latencies, either through LE Bluetooth audio or through codecs like AptX LL.
replies(1): >>45946149 #
79. AshamedCaptain ◴[] No.45946149{5}[source]
Most reviewers are already utterly unable to measure "normal" latency. In the very ridiculous chance you'll find a reviewer measuring wake up latency (which has little to do with the codec used), I wouldn't even trust it.
replies(1): >>45950722 #
80. okayjustonemore ◴[] No.45946226{4}[source]
And haters love a conspiracy.

Truth is, no one has the full facts so any reasons as to why this was made the way it was is pure speculation. Only a fool would move to condemn or endorse what is not yet fully understood.

replies(1): >>45947310 #
81. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946272{5}[source]
The higher end iPads started coming with USB C long before the EU mandate
replies(2): >>45947249 #>>45953913 #
82. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946285{5}[source]
Can another company federate with WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger?
replies(1): >>45946590 #
83. kronks ◴[] No.45946467{7}[source]
You’re just limiting yourself for no reason. It’s not Apples fault that you are sitting in front of an un-upgraded computer that is tool-less (for one of your tasks, at least) and has step by step instructions meant for beginners.
84. littlecranky67 ◴[] No.45946590{6}[source]
Yes, because the EU mandated them to. Just no one seems to want to federate.
replies(1): >>45946663 #
85. tshaddox ◴[] No.45946637{5}[source]
No, I’m talking about at the time. CD players were great at the time, so I don’t really see your analogy. Maybe the closest thing would be those brittle CD jewel cases, those always sucked!
replies(1): >>45947409 #
86. oofbey ◴[] No.45946662{7}[source]
Sounds like you have a flaky / damaged device or bad cables. If there really was some kind of conspiratorial timer requiring you to use 1P cables it would certainly be documented. Can’t hide that stuff. Loads of people use Apple devices with 3P cables all the time and they work just fine, as long as the cables aren’t junk. There really are quality and capability differences in USB C cables. Just because it looks right and physically connects doesn’t mean it can electrically do all the things.
87. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45946663{7}[source]
And you are perfectly capable of interacting with iMessage users now through SMS/MMS/RCS
replies(2): >>45947265 #>>45948932 #
88. fingerlocks ◴[] No.45947133{5}[source]
Customer support costs are higher at Apple than its competitors, because they provide a better support experience. This is not a tautology, it’s one of their core value propositions
89. monocasa ◴[] No.45947249{6}[source]
That seemed like a product segmentation choice to encourage more laptop like use cases out of the higher end iPads.

Less friction for devices like passkeys, external hard drives, etc.

It doesn't seem like they were keen on moving that down the product line since they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do so.

90. monocasa ◴[] No.45947265{8}[source]
Their RCS implementation is so incredibly broken, and I can tell as an Android user.

It seems like every other message gets downgraded to SMS.

replies(1): >>45950509 #
91. monocasa ◴[] No.45947310{5}[source]
As someone who's implemented custom Bluetooth protocols, it's actually quite easy to condemn an Apple manufacturer ID check to expose custom services.

And what do you mean by "conspiracy"? I would be shocked to find out this was done by some lone wolf and wasn't built with broad (even if grumbly) consensus in the relevant teams. That's how corporate software is built.

replies(1): >>45958457 #
92. TylerE ◴[] No.45947409{6}[source]
The cardboard sleeves that replaced jewel boxes were far worse. At least jewel boxes would line up straight on a shelf.
93. rangestransform ◴[] No.45948405{5}[source]
Having to test the AirPods with more standards compliant devices, having to waste time to tell customers to fuck off if their phone/laptop/toaster is not standards compliant, having to waste engineering time to investigate non compliant aliexpress phones/laptops/toasters, wasting time to implement additional functionality for Apple customers because it has to go into the spec first
replies(1): >>45949437 #
94. jesprenj ◴[] No.45948610[source]
That's probably some sort of gate on your headphones that silences audio (by killing power to the amplifier circuitry) if it's below a threshold loudness level, to prevent users from hearing a hissing sound the cheap circuitry produces that is otherwise masked by other louder sounds. When gate opens again, it takes 1-2 seconds for the amplifier to power up completely.
replies(1): >>45952711 #
95. array_key_first ◴[] No.45948932{8}[source]
Yes, except that SMS/MMS sucks major ass, and RCS is really, really bad too. Not as awful as SMS, but close, and missing various barebones features.

That's not Apple's fault per se, but of course, they contribute to it. They should open up the iMessage protocol.

replies(1): >>45949215 #
96. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45949215{9}[source]
So what you are saying is that for Apple to create a better experience, they have to add to the industry standard - the same as AirPods.
replies(1): >>45949266 #
97. array_key_first ◴[] No.45949266{10}[source]
Yes, that would be mutually beneficial both for Apple customers and people who are not Apple customers.
replies(1): >>45949978 #
98. Andrex ◴[] No.45949366{3}[source]
Adobe Animate (née Flash) still exists and exports HTML5-ready MP4s now. Which, as an actual user of Macromedia Flash and dabbler in Newgrounds uploads, is a much better situation. Flash the plugin sucked shit and everyone knew it, including Tom Fulp.
99. Andrex ◴[] No.45949386{3}[source]
That's what I'm saying. Adobe ends BT support in all their devices and software stacks and switches to "Appletooth," which they promise to open up and then 5 years later actually do it.

Appletooth being a from-scratch all-new, cleanly-designed protocol that makes actual sense and is easy to implement by vendors without inherent security flaws.

I won't lie, it would be a horrifically painful transition. But it would be worth it. Apple should have some courage when it's actually called for (...not killing hardware ports, which no consumer was asking for).

I've never used iPhones and have stuck by Google Pixel. I still feel all of the above in my heart. Apple's the only one who can possibly fulfill my dream of Bluetooth's bitter end.

100. bubblethink ◴[] No.45949437{6}[source]
Yes, all that is a part of the cost equation, which points to the same thing, namely, that $200-$300 widgets are not worth selling to the general public; they would rather sell them to a customer who will spend a lot more in the ecosystem. Same as razors and blades or consoles and games.
101. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45949978{11}[source]
Why is that on Apple instead of the hundreds of other manufacturers and Google? If Google wants a better ecosystem, it’s on them since according to them Android was suppose to be the “definition of open”.
replies(1): >>45950523 #
102. xethos ◴[] No.45950509{9}[source]
That's because SMS is a horribly broken, hacky standard, and RCS has to inherit and deal with all the horrifying edge-cases of SMS, MMS, and legacy cruft going back prior to the turn of the millenium.

Then it has to accomodate every other intersted party, many of which hate each other. Apple has always been a bit of an odd duck ("Think Different" has been internalized for some time), but Verizon actively hates OTT messaging as they can't charge for it. Samsung would rather run their own RCS implementation to create and advertise "Samsung RCS", and Google can't push too hard without getting EU attention for antitrust (again).

RCS has been stuck in limbo-hell for years for multiple reasons, none of which are easy.

replies(1): >>45956467 #
103. xethos ◴[] No.45950523{12}[source]
Because while Android is "open", Google has no carrot (Verizon can't charge for OTT messaging and has no major incentive to push it), and no stick (pushing too hard will draw regulators' attention again)

RCS has been stuck in limbo-hell for several years, and I expect it to stay that way (to your point, I expect it to stay that way even if Apple chips in)

replies(1): >>45951060 #
104. sudosysgen ◴[] No.45950722{6}[source]
Yes, wake up latency is going to be a crapshoot, but you can eliminate it by playing a silent file at the expense of battery life. Actual latency though there's nothing you can do about it, so it's more important imo.
replies(1): >>45957494 #
105. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45951060{13}[source]
Google has a big stick - Google Play Services. They use it all of the time to get manufacturers to do what they want.
106. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.45951069{6}[source]
Did you even bother about reading the comments on your own citation?
replies(1): >>45952102 #
107. burnerthrow008 ◴[] No.45951137{4}[source]
Does HTLM5 and WebGL allow all the same security holes and waste as much energy as Flash? Hmmm? Sounds like it’s not a replacement then.
108. dabinat ◴[] No.45952102{7}[source]
Yes, I did actually. I genuinely don’t know what you’re referring to?
109. dwaite ◴[] No.45952455{6}[source]
Yes, USB extenders are not spec-legal (because the device isn't built expecting to be extended).

But you can have an extension cord which accepts USB on one end but doesn't accept USB on the other.

So the keyboard has a superset connector so that it can go in regular USB and notched USB, because it is verified to work right when using the extension cord.

This design also means you can't plug one extension cord into another to get an even longer distance (which the keyboard wouldn't expect). Pretty clever solution.

110. dotancohen ◴[] No.45952711{3}[source]
Thank you. I've noticed this with multiple headphones, but they have all been inexpensive models.
111. extraduder_ire ◴[] No.45953913{6}[source]
That was a much easier way to get usb3 on them than the special lightning port + cables they tried earlier.
112. monocasa ◴[] No.45956467{10}[source]
The specific issue I'm talking about is how Apple for some reason ties the presence of RCS persistently to a contact that requires the user to manually go in and adjust, otherwise the conversation switches back and forth between SMS and RCS as each participant texts back and forth.

This is a problem no other vendors have, and is solely caused by Apple.

https://www.androidauthority.com/android-iphone-rcs-messagin...

113. ◴[] No.45957494{7}[source]
114. eigencoder ◴[] No.45957773{7}[source]
I think this is a problem with USB-C. The cables all look the same, but they don't actually always work for every device, at least in my experience.
115. vee-kay ◴[] No.45958384{7}[source]
I know that Apple MFI certified Lightning cables work well with iDevices, but I found that third-party non-MFI-certified Lightning cables to be finicky with iDevices. But I never faced such problem with USB cables for non-Apple devices (Android phones, cameras, etc.).

Apple MFI certifies USB-C cables also, so I'm not sure if it is throttling its iDevices to be finicky with non-MFI USB-C cables.

I know for a fact that Apple did software updates to older iPhones to make them sluggish and drain battery quickly. I realised this when I went to Apple Genius Bar to get my iPhone 7 Plus battery replaced after it started draining too quickly daily, but even with new battery same problem persisted. The friendly staff member unofficially told me it is because of the recent software updates by Apple for older iPhones, and advised not to hold out hope that any future software update will fix the problem. Even a year later, his warning remained true. I gave away the iPhone to my nephew as a backup device for his studies, but he sold it soon, as it was a nightmare to keep charging it frequently.

Apple has faced multiple fines for deliberately slowing down older iPhones without informing users, including a €25 million fine in France and a $41 million fine for deceptive marketing practices. The company admitted to slowing down devices to prevent unexpected shutdowns due to aging batteries, but critics argued it was misleading.

These days, I wouldn't trust Apple with a barge pole, let alone the money from my wallet.

replies(1): >>45958789 #
116. okayjustonemore ◴[] No.45958457{6}[source]
Every time someone opens an argument with the classic appeal to authority “as someone who has…” you can almost certainly expect to have that person miss the point of the discussion entirely.
replies(1): >>45970073 #
117. monerozcash ◴[] No.45958789{8}[source]
>Apple has faced multiple fines for deliberately slowing down older iPhones without informing users, including a €25 million fine in France and a $41 million fine for deceptive marketing practices. The company admitted to slowing down devices to prevent unexpected shutdowns due to aging batteries, but critics argued it was misleading.

These cases are much less convincing than they may seem if you just take a moment to read about them. iDevices would throttle the cpu to make the battery last longer as it's capacity falls, this kind of throttling is not uncommon and not malicious.

This wasn't misleading, and isn't something that warrants any genuine criticism.

replies(1): >>45961608 #
118. vee-kay ◴[] No.45961608{9}[source]
In my experience, the only 2 mobile phone companies whose phones drain battery too fast are Apple and Samsung. Apple does this deliberately for older phones, whereas Samsung has this problem even for new phones.

You will not find this quick battery drain problem in Motorola, Nokia, Oppo, Sony, etc. Their phones last several years even with ageing batteries. An 10+ years old Oppo phone I have, still holds almost full charge at idle, throughout the day.

As batteries get older, their capacity to hold charge reduces, but if a phone battery is draining too fast even in idle mode, it is likely due to software, not hardware. And if it is due to software, then the manufacturer company is to blame.

replies(1): >>45966679 #
119. monerozcash ◴[] No.45966679{10}[source]
I don't think you can find any evidence of a Apple actually deliberately doing things to make batteries drain faster on older models.

That would either require hurting the battery life on all models or require distinguishable behaviours that only occur on specific models and would be relatively simple to prove through reverse engineering.

Apple has been fined for the throttling, but hasn't ever been credibly accused of actually deliberately taking steps to reduce battery life on older devices.

120. monocasa ◴[] No.45970073{7}[source]
What a fantastic way to keep from addressing anything I said while still allowing you to act condescendingly.
121. kmeisthax ◴[] No.45989015{5}[source]
Flash Player, like most proprietary software, is not Adobe's to give away. There's lots of licensed code owned by companies that sold it to Adobe (or Macromedia) and having a functioning FP runtime would require getting those companies to also license the same code. Remember: proprietary software cares a lot less about licensing arrangements[0] than we do. Everything they do wrong can be papered over with money and licensing agreements, because the entire point of copyright is to make money moves out of people's wallets in a way that improves the health of the state. The FOSS world rejects this principle, so we have to build everything from scratch to get a clean copyright pedigree.

If you're wondering what would actually block a FOSS release of the Flash Player runtime, here you go:

- Sorenson Spark, a half-finished H.263 implementation.

- On2 VP6

- Likewise, their H.264 or MP3 decoders, which were almost certainly third-party libraries as well.

- The "advanced text rendering engine" added in SWFv8 to replace legacy font rendering, which I know was licensed but I forgot which company.

- Adobe DRM

The media codecs would be replaceable with any number of FOSS implementations. I've[1] personally written a clean-room decoder for Sorenson-flavor H.263 in Rust, and the APIs for these libraries tend to be pretty simple and easy to wire up. Font rendering would potentially be more invasive to the codebase. And DRM is basically high-grade radioactive waste to FOSS projects. The main problem is that this wouldn't be "just compile Flash from source" anymore, you'd be making an "OpenFlash" fork with at least some compatibility breaks involved.

And to be clear, Adobe actually had some interest in opening Flash Player. They released a bunch of technical specifications for the SWF format - albeit, hilariously inadequate and inaccurate ones. AS3 in particular was supposed to be a web standard, in the form of ES4, or "JavaScript 2.0". Adobe actually released their AVM2 implementation, avmplus, specifically with the goal of it replacing SpiderMonkey in Firefox. This never worked out[2], but they kept updating the avmplus GitHub right up until the death of Flash.

The underlying problem with both "opening up Flash Player" and "porting Flash to iPhone" is that Adobe management was not terribly interested in doing things that did not have a direct connection to bottom-line revenue. If they were willing to open Flash, they would have also invested into their platform instead of trying to find a way to bilk money out of people cross-compiling Unity to Flash.

I think the best goodwill move Adobe could make now, in 2025, would be to specifically release the renderer component of Flash. They own it completely, the copyright pedigree goes all the way back to Jonathan Gay, and it does a lot of specific things that no other SWF runtime implementation gets quite right. It would be an absolutely amazing object of study.

[0] https://www.theregister.com/2018/03/14/a_dolby_sues_adobe_fo...

[1] To be clear, several other interested Ruffle contributors helped me actually get it decoding video (especially some broken files) and doing so efficiently.

[2] I'm not a fan of him but I hear Brendan Eich stalks these forums. He probably has better insights on the backlash to ES4 than I do.

replies(1): >>46013868 #
122. mschuster91 ◴[] No.46013868{6}[source]
Holy, that's a reply of rare depth and quality. Thanks!