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125 points voxadam | 57 comments | | HN request time: 1.65s | source | bottom
1. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339423[source]
The FCC exists (in part) to enforce a certain morality on public broadcasters. Whatever we think about that today, that was a core responsibility of the FCC when it started and that still exists today.
replies(9): >>45339461 #>>45339475 #>>45339529 #>>45339534 #>>45339574 #>>45339951 #>>45340085 #>>45340187 #>>45340473 #
2. gwd ◴[] No.45339461[source]
I'd be all for bringing back the Fairness Doctrine.

ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine

replies(6): >>45339491 #>>45339681 #>>45339745 #>>45339752 #>>45339786 #>>45341166 #
3. voxadam ◴[] No.45339475[source]
> The FCC is barred by law from trying to prevent the broadcast of any point of view. The Communications Act prohibits the FCC from censoring broadcast material, in most cases, and from making any regulation that would interfere with freedom of speech. Expressions of views that do not involve a “clear and present danger of serious, substantive evil” come under the protection of the Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech and freedom of the press and prevents suppression of these expressions by the FCC. According to an FCC opinion on this subject, “the public interest is best served by permitting free expression of views.” This principle ensures that the most diverse and opposing opinions will be expressed, even though some may be highly offensive.

Source: https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/the_fcc_and_freedom_...

"Last Reviewed: 12/30/19" (Trump's first term)

replies(1): >>45339592 #
4. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339491[source]
Yes please
5. add-sub-mul-div ◴[] No.45339529[source]
And the Food and Drug Administration exists in part to supervise food safety but it can't use its power to shut down Olive Garden over a culture war. What are we doing here?
replies(2): >>45339622 #>>45339838 #
6. lenerdenator ◴[] No.45339534[source]
How is Jimmy's speech immoral?

A list of words you can't say is about morality; it's a drag but at least it's objective. You either said the word or you didn't.

This is far more subjective.

replies(1): >>45339611 #
7. lokar ◴[] No.45339574[source]
Why does this need to be a federal concern? Other than the need to manage spectrum assignments at state borders, why can’t the states do all of this?

Why do California and Mississippi have to follow the same standards?

replies(2): >>45339804 #>>45342796 #
8. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339592[source]
Highly cherry-picked. The next paragraph says that FCC limits broadcast of indecent and profane material.

As I said, the FCC is allowed to enforce a certain morality. It seems clear that the morality being enforced would fall in line with the ruling power of the day.

replies(3): >>45339710 #>>45340018 #>>45340568 #
9. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339622[source]
not a valid analogy
10. pupppet ◴[] No.45339661{3}[source]
Look at you straight-up parroting Trump's comments.
replies(1): >>45339732 #
11. voxadam ◴[] No.45339710{3}[source]
“We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.”

What part of that sentence qualifies as either indecent or profane?

replies(2): >>45339782 #>>45340558 #
12. lenerdenator ◴[] No.45339716{3}[source]
Okay, then the person he lied about can file a defamation suit. That still doesn't fall within the FCC's regulatory authority, so far as I can tell. They're not the arbiters of what is and isn't a lie; a judge or jury during the defamation trial is.
replies(1): >>45340573 #
13. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339732{4}[source]
I assure you Trump did not invent "jimmy Kimmel isn't funny"
replies(1): >>45339886 #
14. smegger001 ◴[] No.45339745[source]
problem is who gets to decide that both sides are bing presented fairly? do you think that Fox Newsmax and OAN are going to be under the same pressure to give the liberal viewpoint as MSNBC and CNN will to show a righting viewpoint?
replies(1): >>45339957 #
15. imiric ◴[] No.45339752[source]
The fairness doctrine was a good thing, but it existed in a different time. Bringing it back today wouldn't address the main issue which is the internet.

When everyone is given a loudspeaker, and the power to create an audience of millions; when "journalism" is equivalent to any random opinion; when anyone with the will and a negligible amount of resources can promote their agenda... No amount of oversight can bring back balanced discussion about actual facts. Reversing a post-truth society cannot happen without radical disruptions to the system that got us here in the first place.

replies(2): >>45340562 #>>45340586 #
16. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45339782{4}[source]
I said that the FCC is allowed to enforce morality. The morality in question here is lying about someone being assassinated for their political views. The right sees Charlie Kirk as a political martyr (e.g. their MLK) and they don't want that taken away.
replies(1): >>45339825 #
17. cjensen ◴[] No.45339786[source]
The Fairness Doctrine has become an urban legend among the left with a regrettable amount of built-up legends of its power.

Whatever you think it did, it almost certainly did not do that. In practice it meant that J. Random Crazypants would be allowed to give an editorial -- sometimes in the middle of the night, and sometimes as 60 second after the news. Additionally the Doctrine never applied to Cable TV for obvious First Amendment reasons.

18. drdec ◴[] No.45339804[source]
There are plenty of locales where broadcasts cross state lines. I grew up in an area where we got Boston (Massachusetts) and Providence (Rhode Island) stations. NYC stations cover three states. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples (probably involving even more than three states).

So the justification for federal intervention (interstate commerce) is there.

Of course, that doesn't prevent the feds from letting the states handle it, but it does create an incentive for some states to want the feds to handle it.

replies(1): >>45340156 #
19. davorak ◴[] No.45339825{5}[source]
> The morality in question here is lying about someone being assassinated for their political views.

Please quote Jimmy to clear up what you think the lie was.

replies(1): >>45340552 #
20. ru552 ◴[] No.45339838[source]
*Please note, I'm not in favor of censorship, it's just that this analogy is inaccurate

Olive Garden isn't given access to something it requires to operate at the pleasure of the government. Broadcast TV on the other hand...

All of broadcast TV is allowed because the government says it is. ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX don't own the radio spectrum they are operating on, the government does and they grant the right to use it to those companies. There's a long list of things that the government requires them to do in order to keep this pleasure. One of them used to be the Saturday morning cartoons. I miss those.

21. hamdingers ◴[] No.45339886{5}[source]
Beautiful motte you've got there.
22. nitwit005 ◴[] No.45339951[source]
The problem is that Trump made it clear the issue was criticism of him. For democracy to function, saying negative things about politicians has to be possible. If criticizing a sitting president isn't safe, you couldn't even safely air a presidential debate.
23. koolba ◴[] No.45339957{3}[source]
> problem is who gets to decide that both sides are bing presented fairly?

There’s also more than two sides to an issue.

The supposed fairness doctrine was utter nonsense for many many reasons.

24. ◴[] No.45340018{3}[source]
25. mrandish ◴[] No.45340085[source]
Yes, but the FCC has existing procedures for communicating concerns and warnings to broadcasters about possible regulatory enforcement and an entire rule-making framework beyond that. The new FCC chair so directly addressing a specific incident off-the-cuff on a podcast and making threatening statements about FCC action against a specific broadcaster over a specific incident was extremely unusual and a troubling precedent. And, to be clear, I'd say the same thing if it were the Biden admin's FCC chair issuing semi-veiled threats against Fox News. We don't want federal agency chairs from either party using podcasts to conduct official business or as a conduit for plausibly deniable (but nonetheless real) specific threats.

As a separate matter, it's long been clear the FCC was created to serve a very time, context and needs - most of which either no longer exist or have changed substantially. Most media no longer travels through the limited shared resource of "airwaves". The agency's whole charter is in need of a major rethink.

replies(1): >>45340644 #
26. lokar ◴[] No.45340156{3}[source]
New England and a few big metros that straddle the boarder are issues, but even there the states involved could manage it together.

I think the New England states could manage this together fine.

I agree, the constitution grants the authority to the federal government to. But more and more, I think we should just let the states deal with as much as possible. It seems pretty clear we are far from a national consensus on many basic issues, and the constant winner take all grab for power is making things worse.

27. aeternum ◴[] No.45340187[source]
Yes, sell the spectrum and get rid of the fairness doctrine. Few understand it.
28. gamblor956 ◴[] No.45340473[source]
If that were true, then Trump would be banned from the airwaves, and Fox News and News Nation would have been shuttered years ago.
29. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45340552{6}[source]
Charlie Kirk was assassinated for his political views. Stated differently: someone with an opposing political viewpoint killed Charlie in order to stop Charlie from promoting Charlie's politics.

Jimmy Kimmel said that Charlie Kirk was killed by someone with the same political views as Charlie.

That is the lie.

replies(2): >>45341457 #>>45342773 #
30. platevoltage ◴[] No.45340558{4}[source]
I don't think that's what did it. It was the showing of Trump being asked about his "friend" Charlie Kirk being killed, for which his response was "They're building my ballroom. It's gonna be the best ballroom.

Trump has been trying to get Kimmel removed for a while for making fun of him. This was just an opportunity.

replies(1): >>45350458 #
31. esseph ◴[] No.45340562{3}[source]
Very well said.
32. duskwuff ◴[] No.45340568{3}[source]
Obscenity, indecency, and profanity are narrowly defined by the FCC:

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-pr...

Kimmel's performance was clearly not obscene or indecent - it did not depict or describe sexual conduct or excretory organs - and it aired after 10 PM, so whether it was profane is irrelevant.

replies(1): >>45340607 #
33. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45340573{4}[source]
The FCC is well enabled to make judgment calls. Yes a network can bring that judgement call in front of an actual judge in a court of law. That doesn't mean the FCC lacks the authority for such calls, only that the judge likely has higher authority.
replies(1): >>45342783 #
34. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45340586{3}[source]
I agree with you but a broadcasting license isn't the same as "everyone given a loudspeaker". The FCC couldn't have done anything to a "Jimmy Kimmel Youtube".
35. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45340607{4}[source]
bad reading comprehension. here is what I said:

>As I said, the FCC is allowed to enforce a certain morality. It seems clear that the morality being enforced would fall in line with the ruling power of the day.

replies(1): >>45340768 #
36. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45340644[source]
Information moves too fast and government moves too slow for me to buy into this "existing procedures and rule-making" line.

Your next point about the FCC needing a major rethink is interesting. What are you thinking here? FCC also regulates internet-based communications (e.g. Youtube or podcasts)?

37. duskwuff ◴[] No.45340768{5}[source]
And what you said was incorrect. Under 1A, the only content which the FCC can ban outright is obscenity, defined as per the document I linked; see FCC v. Pacifica for context.
replies(1): >>45348349 #
38. wakawaka28 ◴[] No.45341166[source]
There are a number of problems with the Fairness Doctrine in principle. The intent of it is that nobody monopolizes the then-scarce licensed broadcast stations. This is not a problem today, as TV and radio broadcast stations are abundant and also compete with the Internet and thousands of cable channels. A more reasonable attempt at such a law today might provide oversight on the licensure of individual TV and radio stations to ensure that new stations can be started up easily. I'm not convinced it is a real problem today except on PBS and NPR, which are taxpayer-funded and seemingly biased.
39. davorak ◴[] No.45341457{7}[source]
Is there a quote from jimmy you can share and that I can reference?
replies(1): >>45342797 #
40. craftkiller ◴[] No.45341812{3}[source]
> having terrible ratings.

Not true. His ratings have him right in the middle of the pack: https://latenighter.com/news/ratings/late-night-tv-ratings-q...

41. beej71 ◴[] No.45342773{7}[source]
Kimmel did not say that. You need to get the quote right.
42. lenerdenator ◴[] No.45342783{5}[source]
Do you have an example of the FCC enforcing action against a television broadcaster or personality for saying something materially similar to what Kimmel said, at the same time slot and same genre of programming, on the basis that it was false and/or defamatory, without any sort of pre-existing court case related to the same?
replies(1): >>45342897 #
43. beej71 ◴[] No.45342796[source]
Look up "border blasters" to see how that plays out internationally. We'd have the same problem in the states, I'd bet.
44. beej71 ◴[] No.45342827{3}[source]
Even if he did lie, that's absolutely protected speech and the FCC is out of line. Every Constitution-respecting American knows this and would be against the FCC saying anything no matter what party was in charge.
replies(1): >>45346176 #
45. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45342897{6}[source]
insane standard. how would you ever govern with that as your standard?
replies(1): >>45347210 #
46. davorak ◴[] No.45342944{9}[source]
I can not start to understand your position without a quote. It has to be something Jimmy said that lead to your beliefs, I know of no better place to start.
replies(1): >>45348405 #
47. suzdude ◴[] No.45342978{9}[source]
You're lying about what Kimmel said, and you want to claim others are arguing in bad faith?
48. bmelton ◴[] No.45346176{4}[source]
The speech itself may be protected, but it endangers ABC's broadcast license. If ABC knowingly broadcasts a lie the broadcast of that lie causes harms, then it is in violation of FCC's section 73.1217, which specifically exists to thwart against "Broadcast Hoaxes"

In fairness to the provision, I think it's outdated, and I've argued against its relevance and that it seems unlikely to me to stand up in any court that interprets 1A jurisprudence to a modern standard, but the law exists and exists specifically to prevent against broadcast lies.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/73.1217

replies(1): >>45360905 #
49. lenerdenator ◴[] No.45347210{7}[source]
It's just looking for precedent for what you're saying.
50. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45348349{6}[source]
The FCC is allowed to enforce a certain morality. You actually agree with me here, since we both cited obscenity as a clear example.

I also assert that the morality being enforced by the FCC [in a given time period] will fall in line with the morality of the rulers of [that time period]. That is a descriptive statement.

Which part am I wrong about?

replies(1): >>45354302 #
51. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45348405{10}[source]
No one needs davorak to understand their position. A large swath of the US is angry at Jimmy Kimmel profaning their martyr through a gross lie.

Those angry people have power right now and used their power to punish Jimmy Kimmel.

If you don't understand that, it doesn't affect those people at all.

replies(1): >>45350488 #
52. xracy ◴[] No.45350458{5}[source]
What was the opportunity in that segment? Surely airing things the POTUS said is not a limitation of Freedom of the Press?

The thing about the FCC threatening Kimmel for this speech, is that someone needs to identify what was problematic about the speech other than "I didn't like that he said it." I would love for someone to explain to me what the problematic part of the statement was, because I think then we could have a more substantive discussion. As is, this is pretty clearly a 1st amendment violation by the FCC chair as his statements demonstrably chilled speech (it's hard to get much clearer an example than this legally).

53. xracy ◴[] No.45350488{11}[source]
Given that this is such an easy ask, I think you should consider not about convincing davorak, but about convincing random lurkers who read your comments.

I might've been swayed had you provided the actual quote, but I think davorak kinda won this argument without doing anything other than asking you for receipts. If your position was so certain you would've just provided the quote.

replies(1): >>45351239 #
54. ahmeneeroe-v2 ◴[] No.45351239{12}[source]
The quote is literally in this thread. Read upwards from your own comment. "Random lurkers" (including yourself) would have read it if they followed the thread to this point.

That's why I don't think davorak is here in good faith. Look how close he was to the quote.

What are you doing here? How did you get here without reading the quote?

replies(1): >>45355612 #
55. duskwuff ◴[] No.45354302{7}[source]
You are wrong about this part:

> The FCC is allowed to enforce a certain morality.

As I said previously, the FCC is bound by the First Amendment. They do not have the power to restrict speech, whether on grounds of "morality" or otherwise.

Obscenity is not considered speech as far as 1A is concerned, so the FCC is able to ban it. I disagree with this categorization, but it is what it is.

56. xracy ◴[] No.45355612{13}[source]
Sorry, which part of that quote is the lie?

Also, why didn't you say that it was this quote instead of leading us on this wild goose chase? Or was it just that your comment got flagged?

Can't imagine why that might've been.

57. beej71 ◴[] No.45360905{5}[source]
If that's the case, then Fox News would be in a heap of trouble.