Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

If only the blue representatives would resolve this tension by pulling support for a now internationally-recognised genocide! :( I suppose that option is just too radical to put on the table.

You've thought through the full foreign policy implications for pulling aid from Israel overnight? I'm not sure why "less bad" on your pet issue isn't enough, especially when you're up against Trump, who has made posts suggesting resorts and golden statues of himself in Gaza.

Yep. It really is that simple.

https://jewishcurrents.org/chuck-schumer-cannot-meet-the-mom...

The Biden administration brokered and pressured Israel into a ceasefire that asymmetrically disfavored them. Israel exchanged 30 Hamas militants per Israeli hostage. The ceasefire outlined a permanent resolution to the conflict, including Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza. They also pressured Israel to keep aid channels open during the war, which is exceptionally obvious now given significantly longer blockades and that famine broke out under Trump. The 2006 withdrawal from Gaza and Oslo Accords were also brokered by America. Israel would not have agreed to any of this without any security reassurances in the form of military aid.

On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans. While it's possible there would be fewer civilian casualties, it's also possible there would be more if Israel switched to from precision strikes to ground invasions and dumb weapons.

> You've thought through the full foreign policy implications for pulling aid from Israel overnight?

I don’t think many people are thinking through now especially the one at the top of power chain, otherwise we’d not have witnessed child charades like invade Canada, Greenland, and Panama, as well as overnight gutting of USAID.

Like this whole thing has gone for 70 years in Israel. We already know what comes of the same strategy that was followed for all that time. Doubling down on it now isn’t going to change anything.

They are using the “smart” bombs to precisely target and collapse civilian apartment buildings and hospitals on the thinnest pretext.

How would “dumb” bombs be worse?

What are you talking about? The Camp David Accords and Israel–Jordan Peace Treaty were resounding successes. The Oslo Accords achieved mixed results but was still a major improvement. If there is a lesson to be learned, it is that requiring for Israel to unilaterally withdrawal was hopelessly naive.

> On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans.

I agree with everything you said about Biden being practically better for Palestine, but this is nonsense. Israel would be a completely isolated state without US support. Even North Korea has China. The last completely isolated state in the world was South Africa whose apartheid ended as a result. It's not crazy to think Israelis might realize forcing people who have lived in the same country for generations to be stateless and voteless to preserve a "pure", "Jewish" state is not a worthwhile gamble if it costs them any connection to the outside world.

Oslo was not an improvement. Palestine (the PLO/PA) gave up deterrence and renounced violence and the West Bank is now being annexed by far right Israelis. What did Israel give up in Oslo? Nothing

Biden doesn't get credit for a few weeks of ceasefire after materially supporting the genocide for over a year.

This is incorrect. In 1992, the PLO had little military presence and were exiled abroad. The West Bank was governed by Israel. The Oslo Accords allowed the PLO to return and govern their people, including the establishment and expansion of their security forces.

It has gone on and the people occupying Gaza and the West Bank rejected several two state solutions. And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel. It was capped off by October 7. What solution can work except to let the one democratic society take over the entire region?

What do you mean by “pure Jewish state”? Israel has a 21% Arab population that is thriving and happy. In addition to 6% other non Jewish groups. So nearly 30% of the county isn’t Jewish.

Getting the Western world to agree to South Africa style sanctions towards Israel to their response to an attack is another level of unrealism over ending America's military and intelligence partnership. Even if that occurred, Israel is quite friendly with India that has only strengthened with October 7, and is capable of building a similar relationship with China.

I wonder if that had anything at all to do with the Israeli right backing Hamas at the time, because they were being shamed internationally (haha) by the previously militant PLA/PLO being more and more willing to negotiate.

Netanyahu and his ilk didn't like the awkward questions of why the terrorists were negotiating but they weren't. So they started propping up Hamas.

> And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel.

"They" started firing rockets, or Hamas? Hamas who is 30,000 of Gaza's 2.5M? Just when was that last election, again?

What are the implications? Israel isn't going to align with Russia or China, so probably they'll have to stand on their own and rely more on their nuclear deterrent. It'd be easier if they weren't bombing every single neighbor they have though.

It's very easy to kill people with dumb weapons especially in a dense city.

Syria killed 10,000s of civilians in just a few weeks using only dumb artillery to shell a city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

The American incendiary bombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 people in a single night of bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_194...

Russia and China would love to get their hands on Israeli tech. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Actually I think thats exactly the plan. They will milk the US as long as they can and once they have gotten everything they can from that dead corpse, they will do what any other nation would do: Align themselves with whatever partner that can help them the most. They have a lot of talent and investment (thanks to the US) and can offer other future superpowers plenty in exchange for partnerships.

> bombing every single neighbor they have

The neighbors who signed peace treaties (Egypt, Jordan) seem to be maintaining peace fine.

It's the ones who've refused to normalize relations since 1949 and keep launching rockets over the border at civilians who get hit back.

The people "occupying" Gaza and the West Bank are the Israelis, and the Palestinians rightfully refuse any agreements which strip them of their rights under the guise of generosity. Stop with the ahistorical equivocation.

> And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power

Are you sure you want to hold voters directly accountable for an election that happened over a decade ago? If yes, then it's a pretty slippery slope to be on, esp if the same standard were to be applied to US voters.

I do because it was clear to them what Hamas stood for. Try reading their charter for details.

Nobody in Israel propped up Hamas to win elections.

Palestinian elections in 2006 were forced by USA (because democracy and stuff) despite objections from Israel and PA who were afraid that Hamas will win.

When Hamas won elections and assembled government, USA sponsored coup executed by PLO. Coup succeeded in West Bank and failed in Gaza.

I doubt any foreign policy aid would get pulled from Israel. Israel doesn't need to be taking actions perceived as genocidal. If the US wasn't offering full and unconditional support they'd just have to go about their foreign policy aims in a more palatable way.

Isreal's approach to foreign policy doesn't do them any favours, I've lost count of the number of negotiators they've taken out this year. The US would be helping them by forcing them to conform a bit more to global norms, if they upset less people and try some more cooperative strategies we might see progress on peace in the region. The fact that the Democrats failed to find a frame like that to prevent what appears, superficially, to be a genocide really goes to the heart of what GoatInGrey was pointing at.

Yeah I was just curious what the commenter thought because to me it's not obvious what would happen, there's many possibilities, what you listed is certainly plausible but it doesn't seem inevitable, depends on so much.

Israel interfered in Gaza politics to ensure they had no option but Hamas[1] [2] [3] [4]. If you screw yourself, you shouldn't blame anyone else when you get fucked.

[1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q...

[3] https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste...

[4] https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian...

Also, Biden explicitly stated that he is a Zionist[1].

[1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/12/j...

Yes, or course. And it’s also easy to kill them with smart weapons. It’s not ant all clear they care either way.

Exactly. Israel isn't exactly the nicest country but they're a porcupine. You leave them alone, they leave you alone. You keep poking them, you get hammered.

And, yes, the settlers are not a good thing--but the problem exists because the government knows they are not the actual cause of the problem, Israel would gain nothing from curtailing them. And note that the violence is wildly misreported, much of it is defensive in nature (look at how often you see one person get shot who is facing the settlers when supposedly they were fleeing--awfully hard to shoot a fleeing person in the front) and plenty of it is purely fake.

Once again, that word "civilian". "Civilian" is defined by usage, not by original intent. And many of the apartment buildings that collapsed were because their foundations failed from the collapse of Hamas tunnels. Standard construction techniques are extremely vulnerable to damage from being undermined. Look at the pictures of the devastation--earlier on you could see the lines. Since then it has become far more blurred as Hamas tends to occupy or booby-trap just about everything.

And it's not a thin pretext--every hospital is a Hamas base. Remember all the rejection of the idea that Hamas HQ was in bunkers under the main hospital? Repeated denials that any such bunkers existed. Israel had a very simple response: we built the bunkers, we know they exist. If hospitals were acting as they should be they would be open territory--the IDF could simply walk in and look around. Yet every time it's been a big fight. And I remember a supposed "hospital" strike where they actually hit a tunnel--got the commander they were after and got secondaries. A bomb that simply explodes underground isn't going to cause secondaries, so clearly they hit a tunnel that supposedly did not exist.

Half the population wasn't _even born_ when Hamas got into power, and Hamas revised the charter in 2017 to remove the anti-semitic language

Nobody in Israel propped up Hamas to win elections. Palestinian elections in 2006 were forced by USA (because democracy and stuff) despite objections from Israel and PA who were afraid that Hamas will win.

When Hamas won elections (both in west bank and gaza) and assembled government, USA sponsored coup executed by PLO. Coup succeeded in West Bank and failed in Gaza.

> Nobody in Israel propped up Hamas to win elections

That's not exactly true, no matter which side you support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas#Isra...

  Qatar started sending money to the Gaza Strip on a monthly basis in 2018. $15 million worth of cash-filled suitcases were transported into Gaza by the Qataris via Israeli territory. The payments commenced due to the 2017 decision by the Palestinian Authority (PA), an administration in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and rival to Hamas, to cut government employee salaries in Gaza. At the time, the PA objected to the funds, which Hamas said was intended for both medical and governmental salary payments.

Israel has always had the opportunity to cooperate with the Palestinian Authority. They chose to support Hamas, instead. Whether or not that's the right decision is up for debate, but the course of action was already set in stone.

election were in 2006. there were no elections after this. i am not sure how payments that started in 2018 influenced 2006 elections.

also, you probably weren't around back than, but there was international pressure on Israel to allow those money, because, quoting mainstream press, un, etc "hundreds of thousands of people will be hungry, there will be famine and collapse of all services in gaza that will lead to humanitarian disaster".

so, now, after Israel caved to international pressure to prevent humanitarian disaster in Gaza, Israel is blamed for propping up hamas.

Netanyahu literally propped up Hamas at the expense of other options, which you would know if you even just read the headline on the first source I linked. So you disagree with the Times of Israel? Care to elaborate on why you disagree other than just make assertions?

Netanyahu wasn't PM betwen 1999 to 2009.

Last general palestinian elections in which hamas won was in 2006.

attempted coup by PLO was in 2007

you will know it, if you will know history.

Obviously, but Hamas needed Israel's help to maintain power, which Israel was happy to do. This happened recently, like in the 2020s. In case there's a paywall preventing people from reading my sources, here you go:

> Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

> According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

[1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

you are moving goal posts. discussion was about gazans electing hamas while been well aware that it's charter calls for destruction of Israel and killing Jews

quoting you "Israel interfered in Gaza politics to ensure they had no option but Hamas".

A few corrections on this topic:

- there was/is no Gaza politics

- Elections were general elections in Palestinian Autonomy

- Both Israel and PA were against elections because they were afraid that Hamas will win but USA forced it because "democracy shall prevail and will resolve everything"

- Hamas won general elections in Palestinian Autonomy in 2006 and assembled government chaired by ismail haniyeh as PM

- USA trained Fatah to coup against legitimate Palestinian government

- Coup succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza in 2007

- During coup, Hamas killed, dragged behind bikes or threw from rooftops those that opposed it

- After coup, Hamas tortured into obedience or killed all opposition

just one example: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestin...

and on topic of how hospitals in gaza used, from same article: " Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital."

More than half of Israel's population wasn't even born when Israel was formed. Doesn't seem to matter, they are supposed to move back to Europe (though they were born in Israel of parents born in Israel of parents born in the middle east, not europe). They can't get away from the original sin of being born to people who were born by zionists. Those evil zio-settler babies.

> And many of the apartment buildings that collapsed were because their foundations failed from the collapse of Hamas tunnels.

Come on man.