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    989 points acomjean | 25 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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    aeon_ai ◴[] No.45143392[source]
    To be very clear on this point - this is not related to model training.

    It’s important in the fair use assessment to understand that the training itself is fair use, but the pirating of the books is the issue at hand here, and is what Anthropic “whoopsied” into in acquiring the training data.

    Buying used copies of books, scanning them, and training on it is fine.

    Rainbows End was prescient in many ways.

    replies(36): >>45143460 #>>45143461 #>>45143507 #>>45143513 #>>45143567 #>>45143731 #>>45143840 #>>45143861 #>>45144037 #>>45144244 #>>45144321 #>>45144837 #>>45144843 #>>45144845 #>>45144903 #>>45144951 #>>45145884 #>>45145907 #>>45146038 #>>45146135 #>>45146167 #>>45146218 #>>45146268 #>>45146425 #>>45146773 #>>45146935 #>>45147139 #>>45147257 #>>45147558 #>>45147682 #>>45148227 #>>45150324 #>>45150567 #>>45151562 #>>45151934 #>>45153210 #
    1. wmf ◴[] No.45143840[source]
    Paying $3,000 for pirating a ~$30 book seems disproportionate.
    replies(9): >>45143932 #>>45143937 #>>45143970 #>>45144042 #>>45144165 #>>45144224 #>>45144519 #>>45144892 #>>45145679 #
    2. robterrell ◴[] No.45143932[source]
    With the per-item limit for "willful infringement" being $150,000, it's a bargain.
    replies(1): >>45144039 #
    3. soks86 ◴[] No.45143937[source]
    Not if 100 companies did it and they all got away.

    This is to teach a lesson because you cannot prosecute all thieves.

    Yale Law Journal actually writes about this, the goal is to deter crime because in most cases damages cannot be recovered or the criminal will never be caught in the first place.

    replies(2): >>45143969 #>>45152084 #
    4. vlovich123 ◴[] No.45143969[source]
    If in most cases damages cannot be recovered or the criminal will never be caught in the first place, then what is the lesson being taught? Doesn't that just create a moral hazard where you "randomly" choose who to penalize?
    replies(1): >>45144073 #
    5. vineyardmike ◴[] No.45143970[source]
    I feel like proportionality is related also to the scale. If a student pirates a textbook, I’d agree that 100x is excessive, but this is a corporation handsomely profiting off of mass piracy.

    It’s crazy to imagine, but there was surely a document or slack message thread discussing where to get thousands of books, and they just decided to pirate them and that was OK. This was entirely a decision based on ease or cost, not based on the assumption it was legal. Piracy can result in jail time IIRC, so honestly it’s lucky the employee who suggested this, or took the action avoided direct legal liability.

    Oh and I’m pretty sure other companies (meta) are in litigation over this issue, and the publishers knew that settlement below the full legal limit would limit future revenue.

    replies(2): >>45144181 #>>45145566 #
    6. gpm ◴[] No.45144039[source]
    And a low end of $750/item.
    7. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.45144042[source]
    Realistically it will be $30 per book and $2,970 for the lawyers
    replies(1): >>45144114 #
    8. jdkee ◴[] No.45144073{3}[source]
    It's about sending a message.
    replies(1): >>45144315 #
    9. gpm ◴[] No.45144114[source]
    That's not how class actions work. Ever.

    In this specific case the settlement caps the lawyer fees at 25%, and even that is subject to the courts approval. In addition they will ask for $250k total ($50k / plaintiff) for the lead plaintiffs, also subject to the courts approval.

    replies(1): >>45145459 #
    10. johnnyanmac ◴[] No.45144165[source]
    Fines should be disproportionate at this scale. So it discourages other businesses from doing the same thing.
    replies(1): >>45145246 #
    11. imron ◴[] No.45144181[source]
    > handsomely profiting

    Well actively generating revenue at least.

    Profits are still hard to come by.

    replies(1): >>45144460 #
    12. freejazz ◴[] No.45144224[source]
    Well it's willful infringement so a court would be entitled to add a punitive multiplier anyway. But this is something Anthropic agreed to, if that wasn't clear.
    13. vlovich123 ◴[] No.45144315{4}[source]
    The message being you’ll likely get away with it?
    replies(1): >>45144514 #
    14. griffzhowl ◴[] No.45144460{3}[source]
    Operating profits certainly but if you include investments the big players are raking it in aren't they?
    replies(1): >>45145556 #
    15. npunt ◴[] No.45144514{5}[source]
    They're setting up a pretty simple EV calc:

    (Probability of not getting away with it) 0.01 * (Cost if caught) 1000 = 10x (Expected Cost) = not worth it

    replies(1): >>45144888 #
    16. _Algernon_ ◴[] No.45144519[source]
    As long as they haven't been bullied into the corporate equivalent of suicide by the "justice" system it's not disproportionate considering what happened to Aaron Schwartz.

    If anything it's too little based on precedent.

    17. wizzwizz4 ◴[] No.45144888{6}[source]
    The EV calculation completely goes away if you add a layer of limited liability corporation.
    18. ◴[] No.45144892[source]
    19. Aeolun ◴[] No.45145246[source]
    So they’re creating monopolies? The existing players were allowed to do it, but anyone that tries to do it now will be hit with a 1.5B fine?
    20. ks2048 ◴[] No.45145459{3}[source]
    25% of 1.5B?
    21. __loam ◴[] No.45145556{4}[source]
    Investment is debt lol. Maybe you can make the argument that you're increasing the equity value but you do have to eventually prove you're able to make money right? Maybe you don't, this system is pretty messed up after all.
    replies(1): >>45148085 #
    22. waynesonfire ◴[] No.45145566[source]
    what a fascinating software project someone had the oppertunity to work on.
    23. coryrc ◴[] No.45145679[source]
    Were you not around when people were getting sued for running Napster?
    24. griffzhowl ◴[] No.45148085{5}[source]
    As long as you have more money coming in than your costs, then it's technically a profit even if that money comes from investments.

    It's not the same as debt from a loan, because people are buying a percentage stake in the company. If the value of the company happens to go to zero there's nothing left to pay.

    But yeah, the amount of investment a company attracts should have something to do with the perception that it'll operate at a profit at some point

    25. tpmoney ◴[] No.45152084[source]
    Even if the goal is to deter crime, we still have a principle of proportionate punishment. We don't cut people's hands of for petty theft, and we don't execute people for exceeding the speed limit even though both should be pretty effective deterrents.