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398 points ChrisArchitect | 38 comments | | HN request time: 0.003s | source | bottom
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jjani ◴[] No.45141781[source]
Going to pre-empt the comments that always pop up in these topics saying "Google/Meta/Apple will just leave the EU at this rate": Google still has around $20 billion yearly reasons to remain active in the EU. Talking Europe yearly net profit here, post-fine. No, they're not going to say "screw this fine, you can take your $20 billion per year, we're leaving!". The second that happens, shareholders will have Sundar's access revoked within the hour.

There is a number of countries where Google has to deal with large levels of protectionist barriers (not the EU, these fines aren't that) and they still operate there. Korea is just one example. Because there's still a lot of money to be made. China isn't a counterexample: Google stopped operating search in China because at that point there was not a lot of money to be made for them in search there.

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1. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45142501[source]
The entire idea of "Oh they'll leave" is ridiculous, an empty threat from billionaires who are afraid of regulation.

The EU has 450M (+80M for UK & similar non-eu countries that are likely to follow the EU on such regulations) population to the US' 350M.

The moment the likes of Google, or Meta, or Microsoft, or whomever else leave the EU, they immediately create a market gap. A market gap that will then in short order be filled with a European company that, because of the population sizes, has a notable comparative advantage to the US tech company.

+ As much as HN's readership loathes to admit it, regulations like this are "Good, Actually". Google's monopolist practices are bad for both advertisers and services showing ads. Any would-be competitor that arises from Google leaving the market would, by virtue of being forced by law to not be so shitty, be the better option. (And yes, this does also apply to pretty much all of the other big tech regulations as well.)

Like, c'mon. "Monopolies bad" is capitalism 101. Even the US' regulators thought Google was going too far.

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2. linotype ◴[] No.45142656[source]
Nm
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3. immibis ◴[] No.45142695[source]
More importantly though, why haven't they?

A lot of it is a because the US brands are more recognizable and cheaper (due to dumping) and grow faster (due to the USA's VC glut).

IIRC a company like AirBNB was started in Europe, and was slowly growing, and couldn't get investment because "who would want this?" and then AirBNB was created, and then arrived in Europe, and they still couldn't get investment because "who wants a ripoff clone of AirBNB?"

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4. delusional ◴[] No.45142830[source]
> The entire idea of "Oh they'll leave" is ridiculous, an empty threat from billionaires who are afraid of regulation.

My hot take is that if they want to leave, then they can fuck right off. If you think your desires, profits, or business practices extend beyond democracy, then I don't need your business. Private enterprise should support and assist democracy, not the other way around (there's obviously some leeway there, but by and large).

5. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.45142925[source]
The EU has been chronically unable to fill the gaps in their economy. If you look at the list of europes biggest companies, it's the same companies as it was 30 years ago...automotive and oil and gas. There are no major tech companies in Europe, which is so insane it's comical. Let that sink in...a continent full of intelligent tech workers has never been able to get a major tech company off the ground.

Regulation may be good, but understand, actually, recognize, that it is also suffocating. People bragging that they have no weeds in their fields, when they have no fresh crops either....

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6. croes ◴[] No.45143067{3}[source]
Without those „Fachkräfte“ the healthcare system would crash.

And the biggest companies aren’t automotive, gas and oil.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/european-union/largest-compan...

Maybe therefore the downvotes

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7. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45143071{4}[source]
>Without those „Fachkräfte“ the healthcare system would crash.

Really? How many of the illegal boat immigrants work in the German healthcare sector? Because last time I checked they were mostly EU workers who got their job before crossing the border. Actual doctors and nurses don't need to cross borders illegally to get a job. I wasn't talking about skilled, LEGAL immigrants like doctors and nurses, I was talking about the other „Fachkräfte“ that tend to make the news.

>And the biggest companies aren’t automotive, gas and oil.

Maybe he meant in the tech sector. Because I can't take the LVMH sweatshop seriously even if they're making a lot of money. And the other companies on the list, FANG are worth more than all of them combined. I think even Nvidia is worth more than all of them.

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8. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45143094{3}[source]
What do you mean by "dumping?" It sounds like you're just talking about VC.
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9. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.45143120{4}[source]
This is by revenue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_E...

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10. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45143331[source]
> There are no major tech companies in Europe, which is so insane it's comical. Let that sink in...a continent full of intelligent tech workers has never been able to get a major tech company off the ground.

This is plainly untrue if you're talking about tech beyond the mag-7 sized supergiants.

> Regulation may be good, but understand, actually, recognize, that it is also suffocating. People bragging that they have no weeds in their fields, when they have no fresh crops either....

And yet it is the tech giants in the US, oh so praised for their size, that are the "weeds" in many regards.

What good is Google when it's reliant on an advertising monopoly itself built entirely on monopolistic and fraudulent exploitation of the rest of the economy.

What good is Amazon when it's reliant on crushing all other retail and local manufacturing?

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11. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45143397{4}[source]
"Dumping" in the context of international trade; Predatory pricing.

The standard model for tech firms has been to run at enormous losses to push competition into bankruptcy or steal their users through subsidized service.

No European social media company could compete with e.g. Twitter, running at a loss for TWELVE years.

In more recent years, it's things like Uber. Subsidizing ride costs to crush existing taxi services & European taxi startups.

This is all, ostensibly, illegal under international law. You can't do it for cars or commodity goods. It's just not been enforced on the tech industry.

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12. ben0x539 ◴[] No.45143538{5}[source]
You know that "Fachkräfte" doesn't mean immigrants, right?
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13. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.45143577{3}[source]
What good is Amazon when it's reliant on crushing all other retail and local manufacturing?

I give them money, and in return I get stuff that "all other retail" failed to provide.

That's good.

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14. saubeidl ◴[] No.45144185{3}[source]
Please don't spread racist conspiracy theories.
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15. formerly_proven ◴[] No.45144326[source]
> The EU has 450M (+80M for UK & similar non-eu countries that are likely to follow the EU on such regulations) population to the US' 350M.

Europeans are much poorer on average though, so actual revenue figures are rather the inverse of these population figures (they actually skew much more to the US than that, but anyhow).

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16. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144350{3}[source]
A key focus on VC glut. I think that another idea to consider here is that the VC's just spend like billions on projects and they don't care about consequences, all they want in the end is profit and maybe growth.. And so, maybe something like airbnb gets the money and expands which effectively removes the competition, making a monopoly who might get fined or what not but still in the end, it all turned perfect for VC.

VC funding (I think) drives on monopoly creation. Maybe that's why we were seeing a huge amount of VC funding in AI because they think that they want to monopolize "intelligence" this time so its the end goal as they are trying to monopolize the means towards creation...

I really want to learn how US got VC trapped. The whole economy's system issue arises from VC. Like, AI hype started from VC spending billions which then justified the absurd AI growth in things like magnificent 7 on stock market.

We really have these billionaires pulling quite deals which secretly shape the world to a much larger extent and they don't do it because of some evil reason but a plain old reason: money.

But the fact that all they care about money makes the companies inside VC justify doing evil things because morality isn't the end goal, helping isn't the end goal. Its money and more money and even more money. Guess what? Exploitation pays the most short term and these VC's prefer short term too.

VC and corruption seems to be the worst issues that I think really influence way way more of the world secretly and thus making "democracy" as one HN user pointed out on a different thread, a "copium for the masses"

17. ◴[] No.45144387{5}[source]
18. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144391{5}[source]
Could you please share how its illegal under international law and why I couldn't do it for cars or commodity goods.

Some resources would definitely help me out here!

Also I think that I doubt how enforceable this is in tech industry as for the most part, they are selling a service and each service is different and thus have different price points and therefore the company should have the ability to decide prices technically.. so if they want to sell at a loss, theoretically nothing stops them from selling the service at a loss.

But I feel like the same logic applies to commodity goods. If two parties want to decide that they want to buy/sell at lower prices, why does the govt. interfere b/w them? Does this not impact their rights/freedom?

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19. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144428{4}[source]
That's exactly the point of the author.

Amazon crushed all other retail in the first place and therefore, now all other retail can't provide some stuff and you buy them from amazon

That isn't good.

Man I am thinking of this as an ouroboros. Amazon got big because they crushed all other retail and they crush all other retail because they are big.

I think that the ouroboros that I am talking about should be known as the monoboros (get it? I am trying to have some fun by mixing monopoly and ouroboros, I hope you don't mind it)

Or just call this ouroboros a monpoly, man. it hurts me sometimes that you can't bring change in this world because of the way the world is right now and that bad things can happen in this world and its far far from perfect. I don't get how you guys or even anyone stays optimistic, I really wish to be a optimist logically but I can't come to that conclusion other than the fact that hey I run on emotions and bad emotions lead to bad things happening for me personally so I need to shut down bad emotions just so that they happen better for me. But that seems a little like running away from the truth. Should I feel okay running away from truth?

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20. croes ◴[] No.45144731{5}[source]
> How many of the illegal boat immigrants work in the German healthcare sector

Nice try of moving goalposts. „Fachkräfte“ is about refugees and legal immigrants.

But undeclared work in the care sector is what makes it affordable for many private people.

> Maybe he meant in the tech sector. Because I can't take the LVMH sweatshop seriously even if they're making a lot of money.

Why do you start at number 3 and ignore SAP and ASML?

Another goalpost. Parents point wasn’t about being better but existence

Nvidia is higher overvalued thanks to the AI bubble.

But Nvidia highly depends on TSMC and they depends on ASML

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21. croes ◴[] No.45144831{6}[source]
Fachkräfte is often one of reasons used to justify immigration in the EU and especially Germany.

„Fachkräfte“ in quotes is often used by right wing racists to sarcastically describe immigrants if one of them commits a crime

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22. croes ◴[] No.45144875{5}[source]
If we use that as a measure than the US isn’t much different than the EU. Besides Amazon, Apple and Alphabet the usual old suspects
23. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45145140{6}[source]
To be slightly rude, there is just a wikipedia article by the name "Dumping"; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)

The actual legal mechanics are complicated; "Illegal under international law" here specifically entails "WTO agreements allow retaliation in response to dumping".

> and why I couldn't do it for cars or commodity goods.

Specifically, it's more enforced. Governments care about their conventional industry. The way this'd look is say, China providing state subsidy to certain industries in order to artificially lower the price of those goods, making them cheaper than US-based industry could produce, with the specific intent of driving US industry out of business.

Just googling "predatory pricing" and "dumping" will get you examples.

> Also I think that I doubt how enforceable this is in tech industry as for the most part, they are selling a service and each service is different and thus have different price points and therefore the company should have the ability to decide prices technically.

The problem for tech is this difficulty in assessing "real value" and the assumption that running at a loss for extended periods is "normal" for tech companies.

For a clear-cut example, consider Uber, who paid drivers more than they charged the passenger(s). This is obviously predatory. Uber has tricks like moving insurance/maintenance to the driver's wallet, but a taxi can't be cheaper than what they pay the driver.

> why does the govt. interfere b/w them? Does this not impact their rights/freedom?

It does impact their freedom, but the reason why the government intervenes is long-term health of the market.

Things like a 'firesale' because you're going out of business, or moving to a new warehouse, etc, are fine. A single store (even a big-box one) going out of business won't crush the entire market and it's only of short duration.

The problem is that dumping/predatory pricing is a strategy to maintain a monopoly. (Or in the cases of extensive investment funding, build one)

Again, consider something like Uber (but the same applies to any "rental"/gig-economy company). They sell rides below cost paid for by their huge pile of investment money, no other taxi company can compete. All the competing taxis go out of business. Uber can now raise the prices to obscene levels and cash in.

Whenever someone tries to start a new taxi company, it'll be small and local, so Uber just lowers their ride prices in that region again until they go out of business. And because they're small they don't have as much money as Uber so they'll go bankrupt first. Uber keeps the monopoly.

Such monopolies are long-term bad for the entire economy.

On an international level, it's China and steel again. China subsidizes their industry, industry in other countries can't compete and goes bankrupt, China can now raise their prices.

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24. lazide ◴[] No.45145174{5}[source]
Nah, Amazon got big WHILE all the other retailers were huge. Amazon was nothing, and the other retailers sucked so bad (consistently) that Amazon was able to eat their lunch and crush them.

Amazon didn’t win because they were huge. They got huge by winning.

Now, they can afford to be shitty (unfortunately), which is actually helping local retail near as I can tell.

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25. foobarian ◴[] No.45145576{6}[source]
> Now, they can afford to be shitty

I dunno, I think it's easy to forget just how bad it used to be. I'll take "cheap junk" I can get off Amazon for a few bucks even today.

26. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.45145639{5}[source]
(Shrug) Generally, the ones they crushed needed crushing. See also Wal-Mart.
27. blackqueeriroh ◴[] No.45146316[source]
Mmmm, you should look at distribution figures.
28. jjani ◴[] No.45146733[source]
The EU is still a massive profit center for these companies. Over 2025 Alphabet's revenue was around $170B in US and $100B in EMEA. Imagine if Google couldn't operate in half of the US, and how impactful that would be. Yet EMEA revenue is higher than that.
29. jjani ◴[] No.45146760{7}[source]
Well written. The comparison with physical goods as you're making it is one I'm a big fan of, and should be made much more often.

It's laughable that tarriffs and import taxes only apply to physical goods. If the EU had even an ounce of self-respect, the second the US came out with the tarriffs, they would've come out and said:

"We think this is a fantastic idea by Mr. Trump. Aligned with his views, we are instituting accompanying digital tarriffs to fix the digital trade defecit. We're sure he'll agree that the trade balance should be corrected in both the physical as well as digital worlds".

And that's why the US is so mad at the likes of Brazil - finally, after decades of getting rinsed, countries are starting to take (wholly insufficient) measures here and rightly instituting the equivalent of digital tarriffs.

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30. pjmlp ◴[] No.45147111[source]
Any company will rather get pennies from me, than none at all.

Many pennies together add up.

31. immibis ◴[] No.45147518{8}[source]
The EU presumbly knows they're currently very dependent on the US tech industry, and doesn't want to collapse the EU to the way Trump doesn't know the US is dependent on imported materials and will collapse the US.

(It's probably more about keeping up politicians' stock market investments though)

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32. ThePowerOfFuet ◴[] No.45148124[source]
>Europeans are much poorer on average though

Some people are so poor that all they have is money.

33. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45148369{6}[source]
>But undeclared work in the care sector is what makes it affordable for many private people.

The same argument used to justify slavery. Amazing.

And also, the illegal boat migrants don't work in the care sector but instead cost the state in welfare.

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34. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45148380{7}[source]
> if one of them commits a crime

What about when many commit crimes? Starting with the act of immigrating illegally.

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35. saubeidl ◴[] No.45149009{5}[source]
I'm not calling everyone racist. Just the ones espousing racist views.
36. croes ◴[] No.45153569{7}[source]
Undeclared workers aren't slaves and I didn't say the boat migrants are undeclared workers. That connection is done in your head because of prejudices. Most undeclared workers in care are from Eastern Europe.
37. croes ◴[] No.45153646{8}[source]
Once again, Fachkräfte was meant for migrants, right wing racists write "Fachkräfte" and suggest migrants are illegal and or criminals and of course muslims or arabic or african. Usually the same people count suspects as convicted and ignore other contributing factors to criminal behavior beside skin color, place of birth and religion. The also usually show sharp decline in interest as soon as a crime suspect turns out to be a local, see rampage driving in Mannheim or the AfD member who threatened others with a knife at a Holocaust commemoration in Strausberg.
38. andreasmetsala ◴[] No.45156796{9}[source]
The EU has a homegrown tech industry that could pick up the slack, though it would be expensive.

The real problem is that the US would leave Ukraine and Europe alone against Russia which has a real chance of turning into WW3. Most likely this isn’t discussed in the US media but feels like every week some notable politician or high-ranking military is warning that Russia will invade NATO after Ukraine. Trump knows our weakness and is squeezing hard.

The mood here in eastern Europe is very much that we’re talking when, not if, Russia attacks us.