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398 points ChrisArchitect | 129 comments | | HN request time: 0.624s | source | bottom
1. jjani ◴[] No.45141781[source]
Going to pre-empt the comments that always pop up in these topics saying "Google/Meta/Apple will just leave the EU at this rate": Google still has around $20 billion yearly reasons to remain active in the EU. Talking Europe yearly net profit here, post-fine. No, they're not going to say "screw this fine, you can take your $20 billion per year, we're leaving!". The second that happens, shareholders will have Sundar's access revoked within the hour.

There is a number of countries where Google has to deal with large levels of protectionist barriers (not the EU, these fines aren't that) and they still operate there. Korea is just one example. Because there's still a lot of money to be made. China isn't a counterexample: Google stopped operating search in China because at that point there was not a lot of money to be made for them in search there.

replies(12): >>45141980 #>>45142009 #>>45142120 #>>45142501 #>>45142511 #>>45142596 #>>45142965 #>>45143127 #>>45143496 #>>45146021 #>>45147755 #>>45162530 #
2. jaredklewis ◴[] No.45141980[source]
I agree with everything you’ve said, but just would also point out that in addition to the fine, it is unclear how changing its practices is going to decrease existing (ill gotten) ad revenues going forward. Presumably these changes will hurt revenue or google would already be following them.
3. devilkin ◴[] No.45142054[source]
Oh, you mean, standing up against full monopolies?
4. ◴[] No.45142058[source]
5. perching_aix ◴[] No.45142108[source]
The only good thing about blatantly uncharitable comments like this is that at least one can discard them without remorse.
replies(1): >>45142583 #
6. bee_rider ◴[] No.45142120[source]
I love that you got one response calling it extortion, and another worrying that it might not have recovered all the money from the abusive practices.

The EU is threading the needle deftly here, I guess.

replies(2): >>45142549 #>>45152460 #
7. tietjens ◴[] No.45142121[source]
Legal jurisdiction of dozens of countries is extortion to you, huh?
replies(1): >>45142575 #
8. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45142501[source]
The entire idea of "Oh they'll leave" is ridiculous, an empty threat from billionaires who are afraid of regulation.

The EU has 450M (+80M for UK & similar non-eu countries that are likely to follow the EU on such regulations) population to the US' 350M.

The moment the likes of Google, or Meta, or Microsoft, or whomever else leave the EU, they immediately create a market gap. A market gap that will then in short order be filled with a European company that, because of the population sizes, has a notable comparative advantage to the US tech company.

+ As much as HN's readership loathes to admit it, regulations like this are "Good, Actually". Google's monopolist practices are bad for both advertisers and services showing ads. Any would-be competitor that arises from Google leaving the market would, by virtue of being forced by law to not be so shitty, be the better option. (And yes, this does also apply to pretty much all of the other big tech regulations as well.)

Like, c'mon. "Monopolies bad" is capitalism 101. Even the US' regulators thought Google was going too far.

replies(4): >>45142656 #>>45142830 #>>45142925 #>>45144326 #
9. pendenthistory ◴[] No.45142511[source]
No, they will not leave the EU because the EU is not reading the room right now. You think Trump will do nothing to protect FAANG? To be honest, despite being European, I'm surprised the US has let itself be pushed around for so long. I don't say I agree with it, it's just realpolitik.
replies(7): >>45142684 #>>45142740 #>>45142778 #>>45142797 #>>45142980 #>>45145882 #>>45146815 #
10. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142549[source]
Im not necessarily saying its extortion. Im saying his observation is why the EU could extort Google for a lot more than $3B. My wording was unclear so I tried editing my original comment but apparently it was removed.

Why forfeit $20B in revenue in exchange for NOT having to pay $3B? I think that's an astute observation by the original commenter.

replies(3): >>45142686 #>>45143076 #>>45146311 #
11. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142575{3}[source]
Legal jurisdiction of dozens of countries is not extortion
12. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142583{3}[source]
My comment was not uncharitable. I edited to add more context.
replies(1): >>45142588 #
13. perching_aix ◴[] No.45142588{4}[source]
The added context being your uncharitable opinion?
replies(1): >>45142625 #
14. 29athrowaway ◴[] No.45142596[source]
It is not only revenue, it is mining data, feeding it into Gemini and selling it back to people in the form of ML models.
replies(1): >>45142671 #
15. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142625{5}[source]
I don't really know what you mean by this
replies(1): >>45142631 #
16. perching_aix ◴[] No.45142631{6}[source]
> I edited to add more context.

Either this was also just edited in or I misread, but what I originally replied to was "I just added more context".

Your original comment above is no longer visible as it's been flagged. I don't see your edit, and no one else does either.

replies(1): >>45142762 #
17. linotype ◴[] No.45142656[source]
Nm
replies(1): >>45142695 #
18. immibis ◴[] No.45142671[source]
If you can prove Google did this, the GDPR fines will make them bankrupt. Corporations are rightfully terrified of breaking GDPR.
replies(1): >>45142896 #
19. vkou ◴[] No.45142684[source]
Odds aren't terrible that Trump will have a fatal stroke before his term is up, the EU will outlive him, and can't and shouldn't tie its sovereign domestic policy and enforcement to cross-Atlantic chain-yanking that changes direction from week to week.

No matter what anyone does, he just moves the goal posts. Let him keep his ball.

replies(1): >>45142877 #
20. bee_rider ◴[] No.45142686{3}[source]
Sorry for the incorrect read I guess. Hopefully it will be restored and I’ll get a chance to re-read it (fwiw I wish it hadn’t been flagged).
replies(1): >>45142721 #
21. immibis ◴[] No.45142695{3}[source]
More importantly though, why haven't they?

A lot of it is a because the US brands are more recognizable and cheaper (due to dumping) and grow faster (due to the USA's VC glut).

IIRC a company like AirBNB was started in Europe, and was slowly growing, and couldn't get investment because "who would want this?" and then AirBNB was created, and then arrived in Europe, and they still couldn't get investment because "who wants a ripoff clone of AirBNB?"

replies(2): >>45143094 #>>45144350 #
22. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142721{4}[source]
I think I've summarized it well enough. I would copy/paste it for clarity but I will avoid that, as I'm not trying to give the impression of evading content moderation.

EDIT: FWIW I think your observation that the EU is threading a needle stands. It's a controversial topic that people are very passionate about.

23. ◴[] No.45142740[source]
24. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45142762{7}[source]
Thanks for the info
25. victorbjorklund ◴[] No.45142778[source]
What is he going to do? Nuke Paris?
replies(1): >>45142952 #
26. bee_rider ◴[] No.45142797[source]
It is hard to understand what Trump will do… it is hard to talk about this without going on some US politics tangent, which I think is not appreciated on this site. But he isn’t particularly affiliated with FAANG really. He has some startup guys in his orbit, but they aren’t FAANG.

And he’s, uh… very motivated by what others have to offer him… so FAANG clearly has some leverage there, but I don’t think it is necessarily a sure thing they’ll work something out.

27. delusional ◴[] No.45142830[source]
> The entire idea of "Oh they'll leave" is ridiculous, an empty threat from billionaires who are afraid of regulation.

My hot take is that if they want to leave, then they can fuck right off. If you think your desires, profits, or business practices extend beyond democracy, then I don't need your business. Private enterprise should support and assist democracy, not the other way around (there's obviously some leeway there, but by and large).

28. dmbche ◴[] No.45142877{3}[source]
You never know they might have kept Cheney's heart surgeon somewhere to keep patching him up
29. troupo ◴[] No.45142896{3}[source]
GDPR hasn't been really enforced. I don't think anyone is scared of GDPR anymore.
replies(4): >>45143301 #>>45143549 #>>45143786 #>>45144451 #
30. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.45142925[source]
The EU has been chronically unable to fill the gaps in their economy. If you look at the list of europes biggest companies, it's the same companies as it was 30 years ago...automotive and oil and gas. There are no major tech companies in Europe, which is so insane it's comical. Let that sink in...a continent full of intelligent tech workers has never been able to get a major tech company off the ground.

Regulation may be good, but understand, actually, recognize, that it is also suffocating. People bragging that they have no weeds in their fields, when they have no fresh crops either....

replies(2): >>45142968 #>>45143331 #
31. ivanjermakov ◴[] No.45142965[source]
I think Google leaving EU will result in more good than harm by shaping a better landscape for innovation and competition.
replies(1): >>45143576 #
32. croes ◴[] No.45142980[source]
Or they are.

How about a little tariff reduction to get rid of this fine for Google.

That’s how Trump makes his deals.

BTW where is the US pushed around? Reversed victim and offender?

33. croes ◴[] No.45143067{4}[source]
Without those „Fachkräfte“ the healthcare system would crash.

And the biggest companies aren’t automotive, gas and oil.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/european-union/largest-compan...

Maybe therefore the downvotes

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34. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45143071{5}[source]
>Without those „Fachkräfte“ the healthcare system would crash.

Really? How many of the illegal boat immigrants work in the German healthcare sector? Because last time I checked they were mostly EU workers who got their job before crossing the border. Actual doctors and nurses don't need to cross borders illegally to get a job. I wasn't talking about skilled, LEGAL immigrants like doctors and nurses, I was talking about the other „Fachkräfte“ that tend to make the news.

>And the biggest companies aren’t automotive, gas and oil.

Maybe he meant in the tech sector. Because I can't take the LVMH sweatshop seriously even if they're making a lot of money. And the other companies on the list, FANG are worth more than all of them combined. I think even Nvidia is worth more than all of them.

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35. hopelite ◴[] No.45143076{3}[source]
Here's a better option that Google will more likely follow; simply build the fines into operation costs and bill that to EU customers or maybe all Google customers looking to serve ads in the EU.

I am not sure why but otherwise seemingly intelligent people seem to be incapable of internalizing that any cost, expense, or fine levied against any corporate entity will always, with 100% (not any other percentage) be rolled into prices. The minor headache of it lowering returns will also be offset and will not really make a difference to any meaningful degree. Most likely Google, just like other corporations that are exposed to this kind of risk, will have set aside a "war chest" they have been building up over prior years, which further would defray any real impact.

Then of course there is the fact that these fines are rarely ever the actual amount that will be paid in the end, and most of the time it can be distributed over time.

What people should really take away from this is that in the end it really is kind of an extortion racket by the EU, but not of Google, but rather of the advertising companies the end consumers who end up paying from he higher priced ads through product prices, and possibly the general Google customer base.

This would really only be an issue that materially impacted Google if there were some kind of real competition in the space, which there is not really. What the EU could possibly do that would have a notable impact is setting industry standards to, e.g., a universal ad format that is ad broker agnostic, e.g., your app, site, service, etc could just serve up ads from all kinds of places, a kind of free market of ads not dominated by Google.

But even with that, with Google's advancement in AI generated content, they will likely also dominate the ad generation market soon.

The oddest thing is that the EU and Europe in general has all but floundered in many ways regarding the generation of a competitive technology industry. But that's a whole different topic.

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36. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45143094{4}[source]
What do you mean by "dumping?" It sounds like you're just talking about VC.
replies(1): >>45143397 #
37. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.45143120{5}[source]
This is by revenue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_E...

replies(1): >>45144875 #
38. outside2344 ◴[] No.45143127[source]
I think it is more likely that Trump point blank tells them they aren't allowed to pay this and that the EU isn't allowed to fine them any longer.
replies(2): >>45143227 #>>45146785 #
39. mitthrowaway2 ◴[] No.45143150{4}[source]
This is why the fines should be high enough that a competitor who doesn't engage in abusive practices, and doesn't have fines levied against them, can out-compete the ones that do. Then competitive pressure would prevent companies from just treating fines as a cost of doing business and passing it on to their customers.

Of course, in a market with this degree of concentrated market power, those fines would have to be very very high indeed...

40. ajsnigrutin ◴[] No.45143227[source]
And ursula will brag how she got a deal with trump, where google doesn't get fined. ...like with the tarrifs, where US got everything they wanted and EU got nothing.
41. overfeed ◴[] No.45143297{4}[source]
> Here's a better option that Google will more likely follow; simply build the fines into operation costs and bill that to EU customers or maybe all Google customers looking to serve ads in the EU.

Google applying tariffs to itself in Europe might be something the EC may a) investigate and fine Google for ripping off Europeans, and/or b) approve of; they previously considered a big-tech tax to improve competition in Europe. Google would be doing them a favor, and Trump won't send them a nastygram this time around.

replies(1): >>45143318 #
42. fsflover ◴[] No.45143301{4}[source]
https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
replies(1): >>45147159 #
43. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45143318{5}[source]
Why would you classify this as a tariff?

>build the fines into operation costs and bill that to EU customers or maybe all Google customers looking to serve ads in the EU.

replies(2): >>45143581 #>>45144495 #
44. layer8 ◴[] No.45143329{4}[source]
Willful continued violation of the law will result in increasingly steep fines, and likely ulterior measures. It’s not something that Google can just price in.
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45. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45143331{3}[source]
> There are no major tech companies in Europe, which is so insane it's comical. Let that sink in...a continent full of intelligent tech workers has never been able to get a major tech company off the ground.

This is plainly untrue if you're talking about tech beyond the mag-7 sized supergiants.

> Regulation may be good, but understand, actually, recognize, that it is also suffocating. People bragging that they have no weeds in their fields, when they have no fresh crops either....

And yet it is the tech giants in the US, oh so praised for their size, that are the "weeds" in many regards.

What good is Google when it's reliant on an advertising monopoly itself built entirely on monopolistic and fraudulent exploitation of the rest of the economy.

What good is Amazon when it's reliant on crushing all other retail and local manufacturing?

replies(1): >>45143577 #
46. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45143358{5}[source]
The idea is pricing in the lost value. So whether its fines or they stand up compliance and see revenue loss from operational changes, that's what they could offset with new pricing.
replies(1): >>45143531 #
47. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45143397{5}[source]
"Dumping" in the context of international trade; Predatory pricing.

The standard model for tech firms has been to run at enormous losses to push competition into bankruptcy or steal their users through subsidized service.

No European social media company could compete with e.g. Twitter, running at a loss for TWELVE years.

In more recent years, it's things like Uber. Subsidizing ride costs to crush existing taxi services & European taxi startups.

This is all, ostensibly, illegal under international law. You can't do it for cars or commodity goods. It's just not been enforced on the tech industry.

replies(2): >>45144387 #>>45144391 #
48. BizarroLand ◴[] No.45143404{5}[source]
I disagree only because I would be truly shocked if they do not figure out how to get as close to the line as is profitable without crossing over and recover those fines in the future with increased pricing.
49. beberlei ◴[] No.45143420{4}[source]
yes, lets charge the EU customers 10% more for the price of viewing an ad.
replies(1): >>45144545 #
50. rs186 ◴[] No.45143496[source]
> Google stopped operating search in China because at that point there was not a lot of money to be made for them in search there.

Source?

Back in 2010 when Google left, their search market share was close to 30%. It's hard to think there was no money to be made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China

replies(1): >>45146722 #
51. jacquesm ◴[] No.45143531{6}[source]
There is no 'lost value'. There is illegal income.
replies(2): >>45145830 #>>45146065 #
52. ben0x539 ◴[] No.45143538{6}[source]
You know that "Fachkräfte" doesn't mean immigrants, right?
replies(1): >>45144831 #
53. jacquesm ◴[] No.45143549{4}[source]
Have I got news for you...

I'm aware of a single record case that cost the perp 350K. You really don't want to get zapped with the maximum fines based on wilful transgressions on large numbers of people.

edit: I misremembered, it was 100K higher.

replies(1): >>45147167 #
54. wkat4242 ◴[] No.45143555{4}[source]
> Here's a better option that Google will more likely follow; simply build the fines into operation costs and bill that to EU customers or maybe all Google customers looking to serve ads in the EU.

That will make Google less competitive and allow more players on the market, breaking their monopoly. Not a bad outcome and probably exactly the point of these fines.

replies(1): >>45144132 #
55. Xenoamorphous ◴[] No.45143576[source]
As an European, I wish you were right, but I’m afraid you aren’t.

The EU would use public funding to build some sort of Google alternative and it would take ages, would be mediocre and most money would go to waste. Instead of incentivising entrepreneurship, which is what they probably should do.

We live very well in the EU. We don’t have to have millions in savings in order to retire. Strong worker protection. Plenty of time off. Low crime rates. Most people fantasise with becoming rich, but as in, “I had a rich aunt that I didn’t even meet in my life and I was the sole heir” or “I won the lottery”, not as in “I grinded for the best 10 years of my life working 100 hours per week before I sold my company” that seems more prevalent in the US. Ordinary people here are super happy if they can buy a small place to live (not a humongous house) even if it takes 25 years to pay it in full, then finish work at 5 and take their kids to the park and have dinner at some restaurant on Saturday.

OTOH: I think the current US administration is the best think that could happen to the EU, a big wake up call. Suddenly there’s money to invest in Defense and that kind of thing.

Also, hopefully LLMs will diminish Google’s importance, and as long as there’s competitive models not from the US (Mistral, DeepSeek) we might be fine. But Google holds all the cards (data). With stuff like the Harvard animosity they might even stop attracting all the foreign talent.

Apple? There’s Samsung for phones at least. Amazon? They’ve become a Temu/Aliexpress. Facebook… huge win if they stopped doing business in Europe. MS? This is the year of Linux in desktop?

The Cloud is one of those things where the EU could build something competitive/alternative just with public funding. All running on Linux, of course.

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56. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.45143577{4}[source]
What good is Amazon when it's reliant on crushing all other retail and local manufacturing?

I give them money, and in return I get stuff that "all other retail" failed to provide.

That's good.

replies(1): >>45144428 #
57. lucketone ◴[] No.45143581{6}[source]
Tariff’s usual goal is to increase the price to reduce competitiveness.

My guess is that exactly this similarity coupled with a pinch of humour, was what caused op to classify it as such.

58. Xenoamorphous ◴[] No.45143764{4}[source]
Wish you could know what they (media) tell us about the US over here…
replies(1): >>45144271 #
59. mdhb ◴[] No.45143786{4}[source]
You seem to pop up on threads on a daily basis just making up shit and pretending it’s a fact. I guess it really matches the bio you wrote here in your profile but JFC… why..
60. wolvesechoes ◴[] No.45143942{3}[source]
> The EU would use public funding to build some sort of Google alternative and it would take ages, would be mediocre and most money would go to waste. Instead of incentivising entrepreneurship, which is what they probably should do.

Something like web search is basicallly part of a modern digital infrastructure. We don't want entrepreneurship in water or energy supply, I don't think we should rely on it in web search, because it will inevitably end up chasing profits over everything else.

replies(1): >>45144336 #
61. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144132{5}[source]
If google is already a monopoly, and EU fines them and google adds more ads to their Eu customers as the parent posted, well guess what, I think that google still is a monopoly...

I doubt that google is a monopoly because they are the most competitive at what they do & thus have the market share. I have been using duckduckgo for honestly 3-4 years ago and I think that I have ublock so I don't see their ads but they are really nothing compared to google's ads and they rarely show even without adblocker (I think).

Duckduckgo is already really really competitive, You might argue that ddg uses bing and isn't independent but brave search is independent and comes really close to google to the point that you wouldn't know the difference.

I don't know the last time I used google but I love ddg's bangs etc.

I am sure that someone else can articulate what I am saying into something more logical as to why a monopoly can still exist even while being less competitive than competition.

And also I am saying that it is as easy as two clicks to change the default browser but it maybe speaks mountains that most people still don't switch from google to duckduckgo.

I sometimes want to recommend librewolf just because it has duckduckgo, ublock and sane defaults (except your web browsing deleted everytime/starting from clean slate (I think) and webgl stuff)

replies(2): >>45146285 #>>45152292 #
62. saubeidl ◴[] No.45144185{4}[source]
Please don't spread racist conspiracy theories.
replies(1): >>45148363 #
63. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144201{5}[source]
If it can buy them some few years worth of time every willful continued violation, then guess what? They are more than happy with increasingly steep fines

Dude, 2.95 Billion $ is already steep, and I am sure that google used to get small fines when it was small in EU too, but its just that the rate at which google grows is more than the rate at which fines grow but I think that EU can't really make a really large number like suing google for 100 billion dollars. and I think that google already weighs in everything like the fines, the costs associated with exiting (stock price drops etc.) and they would actually just do whatever is more profitable to them of the following three options

A) stay in EU & pay the fines B) leave EU C) Follow EU requests

What is the fine amount which might change things into C) and not A) or B)

Because I think EU wants change not money, I am sure that they have plenty of money and they know that google isn't paying them out of their kindness. EU's people or even google itself isn't following EU laws and its affecting people living in EU. I wonder if someone thinks how much powerless EU might feel in that sense. They already have money, they want change.

64. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144271{5}[source]
Yes the voices echo all around the globe of what's happening in the US. Surprisingly the only place it isn't heard is in some places of US.

But I still feel like some points raised by the gp might be right. And I was laughing a little thinking that someone critizing the EU already makes you consider them as an american.

Like its just funny.

Also, I feel like every country has problems but countries should honestly first and foremost try to stay away from corruption and the billionaires/rich people's influence in general and try to be impartial. I do think that EU might be good in that but still, I sometimes wonder if this all might be a facade in the sense that EU wants to work and they want to show something for it and so that's why they are fining google only almost 3 billion$. Like maybe my trust in political systems is a little too faded seeing US instititutions erode in days (speaking as non american but I really admired american politics, not anymore)

replies(1): >>45144362 #
65. formerly_proven ◴[] No.45144326[source]
> The EU has 450M (+80M for UK & similar non-eu countries that are likely to follow the EU on such regulations) population to the US' 350M.

Europeans are much poorer on average though, so actual revenue figures are rather the inverse of these population figures (they actually skew much more to the US than that, but anyhow).

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66. r14c ◴[] No.45144336{4}[source]
Markets are good at driving cost down via competition, but once you reach a monopoly steady state there's not much left to optimize. I think a search utility would work just fine. The main barrier to entry is the huge storage and processing resources that are needed to make a good index. Google contains all the information out how to scale like that too.
replies(1): >>45197965 #
67. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144350{4}[source]
A key focus on VC glut. I think that another idea to consider here is that the VC's just spend like billions on projects and they don't care about consequences, all they want in the end is profit and maybe growth.. And so, maybe something like airbnb gets the money and expands which effectively removes the competition, making a monopoly who might get fined or what not but still in the end, it all turned perfect for VC.

VC funding (I think) drives on monopoly creation. Maybe that's why we were seeing a huge amount of VC funding in AI because they think that they want to monopolize "intelligence" this time so its the end goal as they are trying to monopolize the means towards creation...

I really want to learn how US got VC trapped. The whole economy's system issue arises from VC. Like, AI hype started from VC spending billions which then justified the absurd AI growth in things like magnificent 7 on stock market.

We really have these billionaires pulling quite deals which secretly shape the world to a much larger extent and they don't do it because of some evil reason but a plain old reason: money.

But the fact that all they care about money makes the companies inside VC justify doing evil things because morality isn't the end goal, helping isn't the end goal. Its money and more money and even more money. Guess what? Exploitation pays the most short term and these VC's prefer short term too.

VC and corruption seems to be the worst issues that I think really influence way way more of the world secretly and thus making "democracy" as one HN user pointed out on a different thread, a "copium for the masses"

68. Xenoamorphous ◴[] No.45144362{6}[source]
> And I was laughing a little thinking that someone critizing the EU already makes you consider them as an american.

Look at the comments in this post. The always pro-privacy, anti-ads HN suddenly moaning about this fine. Now that’s super funny and worth of a good laugh. Of course it’s an America vs EU thing, patriotism trumps (no pun intended) all else.

replies(1): >>45144532 #
69. ◴[] No.45144387{6}[source]
70. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144391{6}[source]
Could you please share how its illegal under international law and why I couldn't do it for cars or commodity goods.

Some resources would definitely help me out here!

Also I think that I doubt how enforceable this is in tech industry as for the most part, they are selling a service and each service is different and thus have different price points and therefore the company should have the ability to decide prices technically.. so if they want to sell at a loss, theoretically nothing stops them from selling the service at a loss.

But I feel like the same logic applies to commodity goods. If two parties want to decide that they want to buy/sell at lower prices, why does the govt. interfere b/w them? Does this not impact their rights/freedom?

replies(1): >>45145140 #
71. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144428{5}[source]
That's exactly the point of the author.

Amazon crushed all other retail in the first place and therefore, now all other retail can't provide some stuff and you buy them from amazon

That isn't good.

Man I am thinking of this as an ouroboros. Amazon got big because they crushed all other retail and they crush all other retail because they are big.

I think that the ouroboros that I am talking about should be known as the monoboros (get it? I am trying to have some fun by mixing monopoly and ouroboros, I hope you don't mind it)

Or just call this ouroboros a monpoly, man. it hurts me sometimes that you can't bring change in this world because of the way the world is right now and that bad things can happen in this world and its far far from perfect. I don't get how you guys or even anyone stays optimistic, I really wish to be a optimist logically but I can't come to that conclusion other than the fact that hey I run on emotions and bad emotions lead to bad things happening for me personally so I need to shut down bad emotions just so that they happen better for me. But that seems a little like running away from the truth. Should I feel okay running away from truth?

replies(2): >>45145174 #>>45145639 #
72. carstenhag ◴[] No.45144451{4}[source]
MasterCard leaked address + full credit card data about 90.000 people in Germany. Everyone that signed up for a lawyer (that was paid 15% of a possible payout) got 250-300€, including me. If only 10.000 signed up, it's already 2.5 millions.

https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/mastercard-zahlt-kunden-...

replies(1): >>45145182 #
73. overfeed ◴[] No.45144495{6}[source]
It was tongue in cheek, since only governments can effect actual tariffs.

However, the consumer effects of a "tax" or surcharge on a foreign service applied to a specific jurisdiction are indistinguishable from a tariff. The only difference is the money doesn't go to the government treasury - in any case, that's not the reason most governments introduce tariffs. If Google were to introduce a Europe surcharge, they'd be ironically in alignment with Brussels.

replies(1): >>45146145 #
74. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45144532{7}[source]
The pun is strong with this one!

On a more serious note as much as you can be when you realize that discussions aren't happening in good faith and that biases like nations come...

I think that why nationalism/patriotism works is that the state has a monopoly over (legal) violence / laws in general. But the only way that might work is if we believe into them & thus nations have massive wheels of (propaganda?) or whatever it might take to convince the masses to be patriotic.

I feel like everyone all around the world is kinda the same man. We are homo sapiens. Nations shouldn't define us or the way we interact in an ideal world but I feel like a hypocrite when I myself defend my nation sometimes. I generally prefer decentralization to the point that we might take pride in our nations but we don't get influenced by it because the bigger the nation, the larger its influence/propaganda.

I feel like switzerland might be a good example in the sense that I have heard that there are people who don't even remember the (president/prime minister's?) name while working fine. I wonder if the whole world could essentially agree on international laws while being decentralized.

I just feel like that most of us are puppets and very few puppeteers in this world essentially controlling us / manipulating us into doing things that we generally wouldn't do.

replies(1): >>45148592 #
75. mattnewton ◴[] No.45144545{5}[source]
The customers are buying the ad in the EU
76. mattnewton ◴[] No.45144559{3}[source]
> I think the current US administration is the best think that could happen to the EU, a big wake up call. Suddenly there’s money to invest in Defense and that kind of thing.

Not to derail the conversation, but IMO the current US administration isn’t a wake up call. It’s a temper tantrum by people who understand that the US isn’t as relatively wealthy to the rest of the world as it was after WW2 but don’t understand why. If some of the thrash accidentally improves the West’s defensive posture or spending that’s good but there is no coherent plan of why things need to be changed.

replies(1): >>45144989 #
77. plantain ◴[] No.45144663{3}[source]
>We live very well in the EU. We don’t have to have millions in savings in order to retire. Strong worker protection. Plenty of time off. Low crime rates.

We'll see how that pans out when the baby boomers finish retiring. Europe ate it's children to feed the retirees.

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-francois-bayrou-wakin...

replies(1): >>45147412 #
78. croes ◴[] No.45144731{6}[source]
> How many of the illegal boat immigrants work in the German healthcare sector

Nice try of moving goalposts. „Fachkräfte“ is about refugees and legal immigrants.

But undeclared work in the care sector is what makes it affordable for many private people.

> Maybe he meant in the tech sector. Because I can't take the LVMH sweatshop seriously even if they're making a lot of money.

Why do you start at number 3 and ignore SAP and ASML?

Another goalpost. Parents point wasn’t about being better but existence

Nvidia is higher overvalued thanks to the AI bubble.

But Nvidia highly depends on TSMC and they depends on ASML

replies(1): >>45148369 #
79. croes ◴[] No.45144831{7}[source]
Fachkräfte is often one of reasons used to justify immigration in the EU and especially Germany.

„Fachkräfte“ in quotes is often used by right wing racists to sarcastically describe immigrants if one of them commits a crime

replies(1): >>45148380 #
80. croes ◴[] No.45144875{6}[source]
If we use that as a measure than the US isn’t much different than the EU. Besides Amazon, Apple and Alphabet the usual old suspects
81. ◴[] No.45144989{4}[source]
82. PhantomHour ◴[] No.45145140{7}[source]
To be slightly rude, there is just a wikipedia article by the name "Dumping"; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)

The actual legal mechanics are complicated; "Illegal under international law" here specifically entails "WTO agreements allow retaliation in response to dumping".

> and why I couldn't do it for cars or commodity goods.

Specifically, it's more enforced. Governments care about their conventional industry. The way this'd look is say, China providing state subsidy to certain industries in order to artificially lower the price of those goods, making them cheaper than US-based industry could produce, with the specific intent of driving US industry out of business.

Just googling "predatory pricing" and "dumping" will get you examples.

> Also I think that I doubt how enforceable this is in tech industry as for the most part, they are selling a service and each service is different and thus have different price points and therefore the company should have the ability to decide prices technically.

The problem for tech is this difficulty in assessing "real value" and the assumption that running at a loss for extended periods is "normal" for tech companies.

For a clear-cut example, consider Uber, who paid drivers more than they charged the passenger(s). This is obviously predatory. Uber has tricks like moving insurance/maintenance to the driver's wallet, but a taxi can't be cheaper than what they pay the driver.

> why does the govt. interfere b/w them? Does this not impact their rights/freedom?

It does impact their freedom, but the reason why the government intervenes is long-term health of the market.

Things like a 'firesale' because you're going out of business, or moving to a new warehouse, etc, are fine. A single store (even a big-box one) going out of business won't crush the entire market and it's only of short duration.

The problem is that dumping/predatory pricing is a strategy to maintain a monopoly. (Or in the cases of extensive investment funding, build one)

Again, consider something like Uber (but the same applies to any "rental"/gig-economy company). They sell rides below cost paid for by their huge pile of investment money, no other taxi company can compete. All the competing taxis go out of business. Uber can now raise the prices to obscene levels and cash in.

Whenever someone tries to start a new taxi company, it'll be small and local, so Uber just lowers their ride prices in that region again until they go out of business. And because they're small they don't have as much money as Uber so they'll go bankrupt first. Uber keeps the monopoly.

Such monopolies are long-term bad for the entire economy.

On an international level, it's China and steel again. China subsidizes their industry, industry in other countries can't compete and goes bankrupt, China can now raise their prices.

replies(1): >>45146760 #
83. lazide ◴[] No.45145174{6}[source]
Nah, Amazon got big WHILE all the other retailers were huge. Amazon was nothing, and the other retailers sucked so bad (consistently) that Amazon was able to eat their lunch and crush them.

Amazon didn’t win because they were huge. They got huge by winning.

Now, they can afford to be shitty (unfortunately), which is actually helping local retail near as I can tell.

replies(1): >>45145576 #
84. lazide ◴[] No.45145182{5}[source]
That is such a tiny amount it’s absurd?
85. foobarian ◴[] No.45145576{7}[source]
> Now, they can afford to be shitty

I dunno, I think it's easy to forget just how bad it used to be. I'll take "cheap junk" I can get off Amazon for a few bucks even today.

86. CamperBob2 ◴[] No.45145639{6}[source]
(Shrug) Generally, the ones they crushed needed crushing. See also Wal-Mart.
87. terribleperson ◴[] No.45145661{4}[source]
"any cost, expense, or fine levied against any corporate entity will always, with 100% (not any other percentage) be rolled into prices. " is not true, because raising prices isn't free of consequence.
replies(1): >>45146059 #
88. mastermage ◴[] No.45145830{7}[source]
Yes we should not sugarcoat this. Money made due to illegal pragtices should not be regarded much different than for example money from money laundering.
89. myko ◴[] No.45145882[source]
He has no options other than punching himself (and the rest of the US) in the face.

Which is kind of his thing so I guess he may try something

90. hilbert42 ◴[] No.45146021[source]
"Google still has around $20 billion yearly reasons to remain active in the EU."

That just means the fines are inadequate. The solution is to increase them until shareholders are noticeably hurt. Pressure from shareholders on Google's management to stop the offending practices would soon effect the necessary change.

91. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45146059{5}[source]
Same reason why exporters sometimes pay some of the tariffs and importers might eat some in their margin as well.

There is no doubt it puts pressure on the prices and in many cases it may entirely be reflected in the prices but the incentive structure doesn't actually necessitate it.

92. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45146065{7}[source]
Do you understand what I am saying?

He's suggesting that the money Google does not make because of this regulation may be rolled into prices. The fact that eating the fees is not sustainable doesn't mean they have to take the margin hit for all associated costs.

Whether or not Google is "losing value" (aka money) or losing "illegal income", which aren't mutually exclusive by the way, has nothing to do with that dynamic. They could, in theory, roll that difference into prices either way.

replies(1): >>45146301 #
93. zaik ◴[] No.45146090{4}[source]
Which war? If you mean the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Europe doesn't try very hard to win.
94. nonethewiser ◴[] No.45146145{7}[source]
There are a lots of examples of geo-based pricing that I dont think you'd consider a tariff. Cloud services, Uber, Spotify subscription, etc.

They cost different things based off the country you are in. I guess you could try to distinguish between why they cost different prices in different countries and in some cases it's largely purchasing power parity, but others it absolutely is operational cost differences, such as cloud services. Uber is a bit more mixed - there are definitely purchasing power differences but there are also different regulatory requirements.

All that is to say you could never really tease it all out perfectly in practice.

replies(1): >>45156292 #
95. thaumasiotes ◴[] No.45146226{3}[source]
> Most people fantasise with becoming rich, but as in, “I had a rich aunt that I didn’t even meet in my life and I was the sole heir” or “I won the lottery”, not as in “I grinded for the best 10 years of my life working 100 hours per week before I sold my company” that seems more prevalent in the US.

I promise you that within the US, each of those first two fantasies is more popular than the third one.

96. blackqueeriroh ◴[] No.45146285{6}[source]
Why are you talking about monopolies? Go check the EU ruling, and also the original designation of gatekeepers. They’re not the same thing.

At the same time, Google absolutely has a significant stranglehold on the adtech market, which is what this is about, not search engines

97. blackqueeriroh ◴[] No.45146301{8}[source]
When you can be fined up to twenty percent of your worldwide revenue (not profits, revenue), you listen. This is the EC making clear they’re willing to rule against Google and fine them. Next time it’ll be the full initial 10% of worldwide revenue
98. saalweachter ◴[] No.45146311{3}[source]
So here's the thing.

There are two types of businesses: those allergic to change, and those unable to stay the same.

If you are at a corporation where you constantly have to be Doing Things which Demonstrate Impact, this sort of judgement or regulatory change is a godsend for hundreds or thousands of middle-managers and engineers.

You have a project with clear goals ("comply with court order/new regulations"), relatively low bars for success (minimal impact on the bottom line), and it's all very clear to upper management that the work you're doing is Important. Heck, you might be able to lean on it for a couple of years to justify your existence, instead of trying to convince people that changing the rating system from a five point scale to a percentage then back to a five point scale was a worthwhile use of a dozen employees worth of headcount.

There may be some industries where change is anathema or the owners' oppositional defiance disorder makes they unwilling to change things just because they're illegal, but there's also plenty of others where people will be gleefully fighting for the opportunity to comply with a court order.

99. blackqueeriroh ◴[] No.45146316{3}[source]
Mmmm, you should look at distribution figures.
100. jjani ◴[] No.45146722[source]
China is a special case. As the government has effectively total control, even having 30% market share as Google doesn't mean it's a profitable venture, or that the government hasn't said that it will let it remain one - and there's really no way that it would've given that it's relatively easily replaceable critical infrastructure. Search engines aren't as hard as Googlers like to believe, it was substituted by Baidu succesfully. Think about it - which B2C non-Chinese software (not HW) services are still big in China? Anything besides OSes?
replies(1): >>45148199 #
101. jjani ◴[] No.45146733{3}[source]
The EU is still a massive profit center for these companies. Over 2025 Alphabet's revenue was around $170B in US and $100B in EMEA. Imagine if Google couldn't operate in half of the US, and how impactful that would be. Yet EMEA revenue is higher than that.
102. jjani ◴[] No.45146760{8}[source]
Well written. The comparison with physical goods as you're making it is one I'm a big fan of, and should be made much more often.

It's laughable that tarriffs and import taxes only apply to physical goods. If the EU had even an ounce of self-respect, the second the US came out with the tarriffs, they would've come out and said:

"We think this is a fantastic idea by Mr. Trump. Aligned with his views, we are instituting accompanying digital tarriffs to fix the digital trade defecit. We're sure he'll agree that the trade balance should be corrected in both the physical as well as digital worlds".

And that's why the US is so mad at the likes of Brazil - finally, after decades of getting rinsed, countries are starting to take (wholly insufficient) measures here and rightly instituting the equivalent of digital tarriffs.

replies(1): >>45147518 #
103. jjani ◴[] No.45146785[source]
I don't think I expressed anything about their likelihood of payment - just that they won't stop doing business in the EU.

I think your scenario is a real possibility, but ironically one that would cost the US a lot more than it gains. It's really playing with fire, running the risk of even just 1% of EU businesses and consumers opting for EU services over US ones. And just that 1% represents far more than all of the yearly fines to Google/Meta/Apple combined.

104. jjani ◴[] No.45146815[source]
Being made to follow laws is being pushed around?

If Trump makes Google not pay the fine you think that will have no negative side-effects? His actions have been incredibly positive for European tech companies, 5 years ago the only ones that even considered not going for the US options were a few companies in Germany. Demand has skyrocketed and making Google not pay this would give it a huge boost.

replies(2): >>45147122 #>>45147258 #
105. pjmlp ◴[] No.45147111{3}[source]
Any company will rather get pennies from me, than none at all.

Many pennies together add up.

106. pjmlp ◴[] No.45147122{3}[source]
It is hard to understand in a country where big corp corruption for political parties is considered normal, and even gets prime time with gift ceremonies, and dinners.
107. troupo ◴[] No.45147159{5}[source]
Yup. Small fish, tiny fines. The actual wide spread abuse? Nope
replies(1): >>45166462 #
108. troupo ◴[] No.45147167{5}[source]
Oh no. You are aware of a single cade that is 100K or higher?

Somehow that doesn't stop the proliferation of tracking across the web's largest properties and companies.

109. pendenthistory ◴[] No.45147258{3}[source]
Laws that the EU passed in order to fine big tech one could argue. Just saying, you think Trump (and later Vance) will stand idly by? EU is a shell of its former self economically, there's not much we can do besides cozying up to an actual dictatorship (China) who literally shot thousands of students, turned them into pulp using tanks and flushed them down the drain. I know we all hate Trump, but the US is the better ally here still.
110. Idesmi ◴[] No.45147412{4}[source]
its
111. immibis ◴[] No.45147518{9}[source]
The EU presumbly knows they're currently very dependent on the US tech industry, and doesn't want to collapse the EU to the way Trump doesn't know the US is dependent on imported materials and will collapse the US.

(It's probably more about keeping up politicians' stock market investments though)

replies(1): >>45156796 #
112. wdb ◴[] No.45147755[source]
If it helps to stop the reliance on American digital services and don't mind Google leaving Europe or the European Union. EU should start charging the fines they are allowed too for GDPR percentages of the world wide revenue.
113. ThePowerOfFuet ◴[] No.45148124{3}[source]
>Europeans are much poorer on average though

Some people are so poor that all they have is money.

114. rs186 ◴[] No.45148199{3}[source]
So you don't have any evidence. Unless you link to something I'll assume you are just making all of this up.
115. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45148369{7}[source]
>But undeclared work in the care sector is what makes it affordable for many private people.

The same argument used to justify slavery. Amazing.

And also, the illegal boat migrants don't work in the care sector but instead cost the state in welfare.

replies(1): >>45153569 #
116. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.45148380{8}[source]
> if one of them commits a crime

What about when many commit crimes? Starting with the act of immigrating illegally.

replies(1): >>45153646 #
117. Timwi ◴[] No.45148592{8}[source]
A lot of the things you listed are already partially true of the EU. I wouldn't exactly call it fully decentralized, but I doubt many Europeans know by heart the name of the current EU president (I don't even know the proper title of the office) and they would fervently reject the notion of Europe as a single “nation”. Despite, I see more and more people (esp. in threads like this one) describing themselves as “European” rather than their nationalities and crediting EU laws and institutions ahead of their national governments.

I find this trend encouraging and I hope that one day we can see ourselves as humans ahead of any artificial groupings we sort ourselves into.

replies(1): >>45149380 #
118. saubeidl ◴[] No.45149009{6}[source]
I'm not calling everyone racist. Just the ones espousing racist views.
119. Imustaskforhelp ◴[] No.45149380{9}[source]
I wish for something like EU but for all countries. I know we already have UN but we all know how much UN works...

I think that EU is what UN wished it could've been in my opinion

120. bee_rider ◴[] No.45151000{4}[source]
> I am not sure why but otherwise seemingly intelligent people seem to be incapable of internalizing that any cost, expense, or fine levied against any corporate entity will always, with 100% (not any other percentage) be rolled into prices. The minor headache of it lowering returns will also be offset and will not really make a difference to any meaningful degree.

This is a very strongly stated opinion that directly contradicts basic theories like “supply and demand.” Of course, simple Econ 101 models often need to be expanded by more complex ones, to capture actual behavior. I guess given the level of smugness in your comment (“otherwise seemingly intelligent,” ok, lol) you have some pretty solid evidence that you just… decided not to share?

121. wkat4242 ◴[] No.45152292{6}[source]
Google's main business is not search, it's ads and analytics.

But Google has a monopoly there because it operated at a loss to push others out. Like most American tech companies.

122. ◴[] No.45152460[source]
123. croes ◴[] No.45153569{8}[source]
Undeclared workers aren't slaves and I didn't say the boat migrants are undeclared workers. That connection is done in your head because of prejudices. Most undeclared workers in care are from Eastern Europe.
124. croes ◴[] No.45153646{9}[source]
Once again, Fachkräfte was meant for migrants, right wing racists write "Fachkräfte" and suggest migrants are illegal and or criminals and of course muslims or arabic or african. Usually the same people count suspects as convicted and ignore other contributing factors to criminal behavior beside skin color, place of birth and religion. The also usually show sharp decline in interest as soon as a crime suspect turns out to be a local, see rampage driving in Mannheim or the AfD member who threatened others with a knife at a Holocaust commemoration in Strausberg.
125. overfeed ◴[] No.45156292{8}[source]
> All that is to say you could never really tease it all out perfectly in practice.

Sure, if the folk at Google that coordinate this hypothetical Euro-fine surcharge entirely in person with no paper trail and are confident there will be no whistleblowers.

No oversight body with subpoena powers needs to "tease out" any information, they'll directly request the pricing formulas, related emails and underlying data for 2015-2025 and cross-check with consumer payments.

126. andreasmetsala ◴[] No.45156796{10}[source]
The EU has a homegrown tech industry that could pick up the slack, though it would be expensive.

The real problem is that the US would leave Ukraine and Europe alone against Russia which has a real chance of turning into WW3. Most likely this isn’t discussed in the US media but feels like every week some notable politician or high-ranking military is warning that Russia will invade NATO after Ukraine. Trump knows our weakness and is squeezing hard.

The mood here in eastern Europe is very much that we’re talking when, not if, Russia attacks us.

127. irlib ◴[] No.45162530[source]
They'll be sure to stick around if there's still money to be made.

Here’s a case where leaving makes sense: Google was hit with a literal bazillion-dollar fine in Russia.

128. account42 ◴[] No.45166462{6}[source]
Unfortunately true. Real enforcement would have companies make sure they stay on the legal side instead of trying to work around the rules.
129. 1718627440 ◴[] No.45197965{5}[source]
The cost for operating web search could be down dramatically, when the websites were registering instead. This would solve the scraping issue and also put websites in how their operators actually care about.