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64 points m-hodges | 25 comments | | HN request time: 0.63s | source | bottom
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prisenco ◴[] No.45078963[source]
For junior devs wondering if they picked the right path, remember that the world still needs software, ai still breaks down at even a small bit of complexity, and the first ones to abandon this career will be those who only did it for money anyways and they’ll do the same once the trades have a rough year (as they always do).

In the meantime keep learning and practicing cs fundamentals, ignore hype and build something interesting.

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1. tombert ◴[] No.45079019[source]
I think the concern isn't so much about the current state of AI replacing software engineers, but more "what if it keeps getting better at this same rate?"

I don't really agree with the reasoning [1], and I don't think we can expect this same rate of progress indefinitely, but I do understand the concern.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

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2. echelon ◴[] No.45079046[source]
If software developers wind up replaced by AI, I think it's safe to say every industry's labor will be replaced. Trade jobs won't be far behind, because robotics will be nipping at their heels.

If software falls, everything falls.

But as we've seen, these models can't do the job themselves. They're best thought of as an exoskeleton that requires a pilot. They make mistakes, and those mistakes multiply into a mess if a human isn't around. They don't get the big picture, and it's not clear they ever will with the current models and techniques.

The only field that has truly been disrupted is graphics design and art. The image and video models are sublime and truly deliver 10,000x speed, cost, and talent reductions.

This is probably for three reasons:

1. There's so much straightforward training data

2. The laws of optics and structure seem correspondingly easier than the rules governing intelligence. Simple animals evolved vision hundreds of millions of years ago, and we have all the math and algorithmic implementations already. Not so, for intelligence.

3. Mistakes don't multiply. You can brush up the canvas easily and deliver the job as a smaller work than, say, a 100k LOC program with failure modes.

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3. tombert ◴[] No.45079064[source]
I think this is making an assumption that the number of potential jobs is fixed. I don't agree with that assumption. I think as people learn how to use these tools then more industries pop up to use those tools.

ETA:

You updated your post and I think I agree with most of what you said after you updated.

4. prisenco ◴[] No.45079070[source]
| "what if it keeps getting better at this same rate?"

All relevant and recent evidence points to logarithmic improvement, not the exponential we were told (promised) in the beginning.

We're likely waiting at this point for another breakthrough on the level of the attention paper. That could be next year, it could be 5-10 years from now, it could be 50 years from now. There's no point in prediction.

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5. tombert ◴[] No.45079102[source]
Yeah, that's how I feel about it.

People like to assume that progress is this steady upward line, but I think it's more like a staircase. Someone comes up with something cool, there's a lot of amazing progress in the short-to-mid term, and then things kind of level out. I mean, hell, this isn't even the first time that this has happened with AI [1].

The newer AI models are pretty cool but I think we're getting into the "leveling out" phase of it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter

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6. bc569a80a344f9c ◴[] No.45079103[source]
> If software developers wind up replaced by AI, I think it's safe to say every industry's labor will be replaced. Trade jobs won't be far behind, because robotics will be nipping at their heels. If software falls, everything falls.

I don’t think that follows at all. Robotics is notably much, much, much harder than AI/ML. You can replace programmers without robotics. You can’t replace trades without them.

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7. themafia ◴[] No.45079123[source]
> logarithmic improvement

Relative to time. Not relative to capital investment. There it's nearly perfectly linear.

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8. echelon ◴[] No.45079125{3}[source]
> Robotics is notably much, much, much harder than AI/ML.

Are you so sure?

Almost every animal has solved locomotion, some even with incredibly primitive brains. Evolution knocked this out of the park hundreds of millions of years ago.

Drosophila can do it, and we've mapped their brains.

Only a few animals have solved reasoning.

I'm sure the robotics videos I've seen lately have been cherry picked, but the results are nothing short of astounding. And there are now hundreds of billions of dollars being poured into solving it.

I'd wager humans stumble across something evolution had a cake walk with before they stumble across the thing that's only happened once in the known universe.

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9. themafia ◴[] No.45079137{3}[source]
The main problem with the current technology, to my eye, is you need these huge multi dimensional models with extremely lossy encoding in order to implement the system on a modern CPU which is effectively a 2.5D piece of hardware that ultimately accesses a 1D array of memory.

Your exponential problems have exponential problems. Scaling this system is factorially hard.

10. mitthrowaway2 ◴[] No.45079155[source]
Jevons paradox doesn't always apply (it depends on the shape of supply-demand curves) and it is entirely possible for technology to eliminate careers. For example, a professional translator can work far faster now than twenty years ago, but the result is that positions for professional translators are rapidly disappearing rather than growing. There's a finite demand for paid translation work and it's fairly saturated. There are also far fewer personal secretaries now than there were in the '70s. That used to be a very common and reasonably well-paying career. It may happen that increasing the efficiency of software development results in even more and even-better-paid software developers, but this isn't a guaranteed outcome.
11. ares623 ◴[] No.45079170{3}[source]
There will be millions of meat based robots lining up to flood the market when every knowledge based worker is displaced.
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12. bc569a80a344f9c ◴[] No.45079171{4}[source]
Yes, robotics is harder. Here’s some links. Wiki as an intro, and a reasonably entertaining write up that explains the concept in some depth, specifically comparing the issue to LLM progress as of 2024

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox

https://harimus.github.io/2024/05/31/motortask.html

Edit: just to specifically address your argument, doing something evolution has optimized for hundreds of millions of years is much harder than something evolution “came up with” very recently (abstract thought).

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13. teaearlgraycold ◴[] No.45079202[source]
You imply the models have been improving in some capacity.
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14. esseph ◴[] No.45079254{4}[source]
Driving down the value of their labor, but still not competitive enough globally because it's just so much cheaper in other countries for that labor.
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15. Avshalom ◴[] No.45079261{4}[source]
Well a large chunk of HN thinks the existing generation of AI is capable of doing 80% of their job, this has not translated at all to robotic stevedores and even less to robotic plumbers so yeah all current evidence supports "Robotics is notably much, much, much harder than AI/ML"
16. echelon ◴[] No.45079367{5}[source]
> Edit: just to specifically address your argument, doing something evolution has optimized for hundreds of millions of years is much harder than something evolution “came up with” very recently (abstract thought).

You've got this backwards.

If evolution stumbled upon locomotion early -- and several times independently through convergent evolution --, that means it's an easy problem, relatively speaking.

We've come up with math and heuristics for robotics (just like vision and optics). We're turning up completely empty for intelligence.

17. prisenco ◴[] No.45079406{3}[source]
I don't follow, can you explain more?
18. ◴[] No.45079455{3}[source]
19. shikon7 ◴[] No.45079489{3}[source]
Shouldn't it be the other way round, linear to time, and logarithmic relative to (the exponentially growing) capital investment?
20. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.45080030{4}[source]
>Almost every animal has solved locomotion, some even with incredibly primitive brains. Evolution knocked this out of the park hundreds of millions of years ago.

>Only a few animals have solved reasoning.

the assumption here seems to be that reasoning will be able to do what evolution did hundreds of millions of years ago (with billions of years of work being put into that doing) much easier than evolution did for.. some reason that is not exactly expressed?

logically also I should note that given the premises laid out by the first quoted paragraph the second quoted paragraph should not be "only a few animals have solved reasoning" it should be "evolution has only solved reasoning a few times"

21. BobbyTables2 ◴[] No.45080154[source]
If AI robots can replace labor, then they’ll figure out humanity only gets in their way.
22. Bolwin ◴[] No.45080477[source]
You really think gpt 3 could do half the things current models do?
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23. BoiledCabbage ◴[] No.45081190[source]
> All relevant and recent evidence points to logarithmic improvement,

Any citations for this pretty strong assertion? And please don't reply with "oh you can just tell by feel".

24. grumple ◴[] No.45083471{5}[source]
A laborer in Asia can't install plumbing in America, install electrical systems in America, etc...

We also should end the exploitative nature of globalization. Outsourced work should be held to the same standards as laborers in modern countries (preferably EU, rather than American, standards).

25. teaearlgraycold ◴[] No.45089842{3}[source]
Gotta go all the way back to GPT3 to make that point? Everything has plateaued since GPT4. And yes, they’ve added all sorts of nice features like structured outputs and big context windows.