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University of Cambridge Cognitive Ability Test

(planning.e-psychometrics.com)
101 points indigodaddy | 20 comments | | HN request time: 2.659s | source | bottom
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hirvi74 ◴[] No.45077200[source]
I still do not understand why we are wasting scientific resources trying to stack rank humans on arbitrarily defined concepts like cognitive ability or intelligence.

After over a century of psychometric research in cognitive abilities and intelligence, what do we have to show for it? Whose life has actually improved for the better? Have the benefits from such research, if any, outweighed the amount of harm that has already been caused?

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bofadeez ◴[] No.45077238[source]
Psychometrics has clear value. Cognitive ability predicts academic/job performance (Schmidt & Hunter 1998, Psych Bull), and standardized tests reliably forecast college outcomes (Kuncel, Hezlett & Ones 2004, Science). Conscientiousness adds further predictive power (Poropat 2009, Psych Bull). The science is robust. The issue is the discomfort it causes, not lack of benefit or predictive power.
replies(1): >>45077340 #
shermantanktop ◴[] No.45077340[source]
Intelligence testing is not widely used in employment hiring, despite many attempts. Why is that?
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1. gruez ◴[] No.45077416[source]
Because the supreme court ruled that it's racist to do so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

replies(2): >>45078241 #>>45086911 #
2. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45078241[source]
No, the Supreme Court ruled that you have to have a concrete business reason for implementing a test that is disproportionately likely to favour one ethnic group over another:

> The touchstone is business necessity. If an employment practice which operates to exclude Negroes cannot be shown to be related to job performance, the practice is prohibited.

replies(2): >>45078990 #>>45080097 #
3. bofadeez ◴[] No.45078990[source]
So the NBA is discriminating by using physical tests that require height?

Any kind of skill-based testing is obviously racist. Thanks for teaching me.

replies(2): >>45079114 #>>45080524 #
4. olddustytrail ◴[] No.45079114{3}[source]
The NBA doesn't discriminate by height. They have chosen players that are 5'3" over players who are 6'6".

You're welcome for me educating you.

replies(1): >>45079684 #
5. bofadeez ◴[] No.45079684{4}[source]
Oh you're right, it is very diverse in the NBA in terms of height and race. Not at all dominated by tall guys.

The Duke Power Company had as many black people in management as the NBA has short players.

Your argument is not even internally consistent.

replies(1): >>45082737 #
6. Jensson ◴[] No.45080097[source]
Isn't that the same thing? Basically a business that believes hiring is better using IQ is not able to do so since the supreme court ruled that is racist.
replies(1): >>45080516 #
7. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45080516{3}[source]
No. A business that believes hiring is better using IQ is able to do so if they can show that it has a relation to job performance.
replies(1): >>45082566 #
8. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45080524{3}[source]
No? The quote specifically says “If [it] cannot be shown to be related to job performance”.

Maybe we should implement IQ testing before people are allowed to post on HN.

9. peterfirefly ◴[] No.45082566{4}[source]
The problem is that that is very easy to prove... but really hard to convince a modern judge of.
replies(2): >>45085251 #>>45086926 #
10. olddustytrail ◴[] No.45082737{5}[source]
That is discriminating by ability not height. It happens to be easier for taller people to have that ability but that's secondary.
replies(1): >>45085125 #
11. bofadeez ◴[] No.45085125{6}[source]
Duke Power Company was discriminating by IQ not race. It just happened to have been easier for white people to pass the IQ test at the time, but that's secondary. You're using the same logic used by Duke power Company's defense team.
replies(1): >>45085382 #
12. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45085251{5}[source]
Can you prove it?
replies(1): >>45085763 #
13. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45085382{7}[source]
> If an employment practice which operates to exclude Negroes cannot be shown to be related to job performance, the practice is prohibited.

This heavily implies the opposite:

> If an employment practice which operates to exclude Negroes CAN be shown to be related to job performance, the practice is NOT prohibited.

The problem is you’ve got an indicator that appears to favour white people, and a lack of evidence that the indicator shows anything of relevance to the actual position or job content.

Hypothetically, let’s say you were a racist, a nice easy way to do racist things like “disproportionately hire white people” would be to find some metric which disproportionately favours white people, and then evaluate everyone against that.

If you can prove it’s important for the job, you can discriminate still. For example, a Chinese restaurant can require knowledge of Mandarin, a metric which very likely favours people of Chinese descent. They just have to be able to explain why (e.g.: internal communication is in Mandarin, most of our customers speak Mandarin, etc).

14. tptacek ◴[] No.45086911[source]
No they didn't. There's ~basically nothing to this claim. IQ tests are openly used by several of the largest firms in the US. The companies that provide the tests and testing infrastructure brag about it with logo crawls just like every other company.

Why is this myth so pernicious? It comes up a lot here!

15. tptacek ◴[] No.45086926{5}[source]
You're all trying to axiomatically derive a result that clearly conflicts with empirical evidence. IQ tests do get used in American hiring; not not that often, because they don't work well for that purpose.
16. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45087393{7}[source]
You already posted this. It’s not proof. It’s a meta analysis that suggests that in general cognitive ability might have some role in differences in job performance (maybe up to 25%).

It doesn’t even touch the question of whether IQ tests are good measures of cognitive ability, nor does it only include IQ tests as measures of cognitive ability.

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17. bofadeez ◴[] No.45087741{8}[source]
So you just affirmed "a business that believes hiring is better using IQ is not able to do so since the supreme court ruled that is racist" without realizing it. Not being consistent but it's okay. Great job lol
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18. hirvi74 ◴[] No.45088458{9}[source]
Does your IQ score bring you some sense of purpose or identity? Does someone disagreeing with you or asking question cut at the very core of your sense of being?

In this thread, you have been nothing but rude, condescending, and snarky to your fellow YC users. So, what gives?

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19. bofadeez ◴[] No.45088757{10}[source]
I've never taken an IQ test. I just care about intellectual honesty and was responding to someone who called for IQ testing as a prerequisite to posting on this forum. What's the next pivot in the argument?
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20. d1sxeyes ◴[] No.45089369{11}[source]
That’s fair, I shouldn’t have said that, I’m sorry.