Framework Laptop 16

You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framework would have some leadership in the keyboard area. This is why I have been exclusively Thinkpads for my last 3 laptops.

Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.

Likewise, I would kill for gaps between Esc/F1, F4/F5, and F8/F9. ThinkPads do this although it is very subtle.

The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal.

I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.

> And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster?

I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight.

I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.

At least the arrow keys are all the same size, unlike that super common awful design where the left and right keys are twice the size of the up and down keys.

I was just badgering Gemini to find me a modern laptop with keys like the PowerBook g4. It looks like everything went chiclet style keys around 2012.

Still on the lookout for anything that’s not chiclet based, but they literally don’t exist.

How about the mechanical keys on the alienware m15 / m17?

https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-...

You probably want a full numpad shifting the entire keyboard off-center as well?

I have half a mind to buy a really rough looking PB G4, gut it, and see what kind of very small Pi or N100 shaped thing I can fit inside.

I mean, they made their keyboard swappable, with open-source firmware. If you are passionate enough, you can make (and sell) a replacement that solves these issues.

Making custom electronics goes way beyond "passionate" and into "has specialized skills and enough capital to get these made".

No, this is something terrible the modern thinkpads have. My 2018 era thinkpads have the pg up/down arrow keys and a regular full width keyboard. That's what I want, anyway.

The keyboards have full NKRO support and are fully mappable with QMK firmware, plus they offer blank key caps AND a macro or numpad input module. That feels like plenty of leadership to me - that's unheard of in any other laptop. Can't please everyone I guess.

I think "well just make the PR yourself" comments are too reductionist myself, but in this case Framework does have space for 3rd party components in the marketplace. I don't think it'd be crazy to imagine some custom keyboards will appear there.

And here's an example of someone making a custom keyboard: https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-... - it looks pretty awesome, and I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever seen a laptop with an ergo keyboard like that.

Framework 16 is a collection of modules, so I think complaining about the modules is fair game, but it could also be seen as a basis/standard that isn't expected to fit everyone's needs, but fit maybe 90% and allow other people to make the customizations they need easier, in which case complaining about they arrow keys on a single component does feel a bit trivial.

I really wish it was just low profile...

Still my favorite laptop of all time. Wish I could buy a new one with modern internals.

If they designed their keyboard ergonomically, they wouldn't need numpad modules. But yes, can't please everyone, too many people with low standards easily pleasable

> but fit maybe 90%

Bad keyboards fit 0% to the point of injuring x%. Now try to trivialize this more realistic number

My last 3 laptops have also been Thinkpads. In addition to the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I also enjoy Thinkpad's trackpoint. Too bad Framework doesn't offer any mouse buttons and trackpoint on their keyboards, otherwise I might have considered them.

How exactly does typing Fn+ArrowDown instead of PgDn lead to injuries?

Why would you miss the keyboard forest that's explicitly linked to in the comment for the tiny blade of grass that is PgDn?

> Can't please everyone I guess.

This is such a lame response to valid criticism.

Key remapping is not a feature that you need hardware support for and neither are macros - both can be done in the OS and/or user-space software. Different prints on key caps are also not important at all since you shouldn't need them in the first place and hardly a response to someone being unhappy with the physical keyboard layout. So basically you're saying that because Framework already provides the easy parts that the user could already do in software now no one is allowed to complain about the physical layout that users cannot alter.

My fantasy for the Laptop 16 keyboard: Optional taller hinges and thicker bezel.

Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Bit pedantic… being satisfied with less is a quality, let’s not forget this.

Did you miss:

> numpad input module

You can literally add a physical numpad if you want: https://frame.work/gb/en/products/16-numpad?v=FRAKDM0001

Same here. I've been using Lenovo/ThinkPads for the last 12 years mainly because of the pointer. It's perfect for programming. I'm more productive and focused when I keep my hands on the home row all the time. I don't see myself ever going back to a touchpad.

The company actually put a video out a yesterday or the day before about adding a trackpoint - they're open to the idea, but they're all too tall! They actually tried to add it, but it always put pressure on the screen because their keyboards are too low-profile to accommodate one.

> Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.

This logic is why I like the tiny arrow keys. I find it pretty easy to move my pinky over and tap one of those keys. With full size keys, I find that doesn't really work.

I watched that video yesterday. Too bad. I'm glad they have looked into it at least. But too bad that Lenovo is able to build laptops with a trackpoint but not them. I don't see myself using a touchpad again if I can avoid it, so I'm afraid I will keep using ThinkPads for the foreseeable future.

Positive or negative quality?

To me, it’s a positive quality.

Use VIM bindings, and you will never need the "PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster" ever again. I surely didn't miss it a single day in the past 15 years...

As someone who has been stuck with 13 inch laptops for years, and loves numpads, this is categorically false. With even a day of practice you will massively overtake your numerical typing speed with a numpad. If you have issues with it, you can try putting the numpad module on the left. Some people swear by it.

Apple people always complain about this. It takes like 1 day to get used to. I will never understand how so many people mistake familiar with 'better'. I have always preferred a numpad, and it drives me crazy when people act like my preference is 'wrong', and that the fact the fw-16 supports it somehow devalues it.

Just make it soft and fleshy! And if you prefer it firmer just blow on it or use an ice cube

> categorically false. With even a day of practice you will massively overtake your numerical typing speed with a numpad.

Speaking of categorically false... How would you even know if you if you've been stuck with the default bad layout on 13 inch?

With a good layout your laptop would have keys laid out in a way that is even more comfortable than those of a standard standalone numpad (which ignores the difference in finger length), so your claim that worse layout is magically massively faster is just categorically implausible.

You're just likely confused because you compare numpad to the unergonomic horizontal 1234567890 number layer, but no, you'll have a bumps numpad layer at your fingertips, so count moving your hands right to a separate module and returning back left into typing speed as well...

Universally? Even if it leads to decades of rsi-health-dangerously poor manufacturing quality?

Depends on the context, but generally yes. It’s not new, it’s called asceticism, frugality, many other names I guess.

Also, asking for more is very rarely a form of altruism: no one asks for more to avoid (others) “decades of rsi-health-dangerously poor manufacturing quality”, it’s generally for one’s own benefit, nothing more.

Well, you know the context: it's bad keyboards that cause health issues. Asceticism etc doesn't fit, such a person wouldn't even buy this new premium laptop model. The altruism angle is also puzzling - is it bad to look after your own health or what?

Ah, my mistake, you were talking about _your_ decades.

Well then, back to standard answer then: pick another laptop.

I really thought for a moment we were discussing the general crowd and why they should/could/must insist on ergonomic keyboards in general, but we misunderstood each other it seems.

Nah, your mistake it much more basic - you confuse me with everyone or "is very rarely" with "never".

> back to standard answer then This is not an answer to any of the questions. But you're right, standards of conversations are just as bad as those of hardware manufacturers

> I really thought for a moment we were discussing the general crowd

I was, but then you've made up a world where no one cares about anyone else, so tried to wipe that reality off your conceptual map.

I also own an external keyboard. Life dictates that I do most of my work outside of my home or office though so most of my typing gets done on the integrated keyboard. Also, are you talking about an ergo keyboard? That is an unreasonable critique, what laptop has an ergo keyboard? I don't use a numbpad when I need to write a single '2' mid sentence. I use it for stuff like ip addresses, that whole 5-8 region feels so awkward, and I hate sliding my hands that far up the palmrest.