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1163 points DaveZale | 91 comments | | HN request time: 0.352s | source | bottom
1. SilverElfin ◴[] No.44736599[source]
> More than half of Helsinki’s streets now have speed limits of 30 km/h. Fifty years ago, the majority were limited to 50 km/h.

So they hurt quality of life by making it more painful to get anywhere, taking time away from everyone’s lives. You can achieve no traffic deaths by slowing everyone to a crawl. That doesn’t make it useful or good. The goal should be fast travel times and easy driving while also still reducing injuries, which newer safety technologies in cars will achieve.

> Cooperation between city officials and police has increased, with more automated speed enforcement

Mass surveillance under the ever present and weak excuse of “safety”.

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2. moralestapia ◴[] No.44737241[source]
50 km/h to 30 km/h on a city commute doesn't make a substantial difference.

If you're willing to risk people dying just to get to your preferred McDonald's three minutes earlier, then the problem is you.

replies(3): >>44737467 #>>44737949 #>>44771062 #
3. DaveZale ◴[] No.44737467[source]
I wonder if the "5 minute city" approach would also help. Just zone the cities so that getting that burger doesn't even involve driving at all, just a brisk walk?
replies(2): >>44771284 #>>44771820 #
4. elygre ◴[] No.44737682[source]
The below article is in Norwegian, but has many references at the end. Apparently people are overwhelmingly happy, so it seems inappropriate to talk about «hurting quality of life».

https://www.tiltak.no/d-flytte-eller-regulere-trafikk/d2-reg...

replies(1): >>44738963 #
5. ◴[] No.44737857[source]
6. calmbonsai ◴[] No.44737949[source]
I can't see how a 20 km/h difference can't not make a difference averaged over so many commuter-miles, but I'm not a city planner or traffic engineer.
replies(6): >>44738107 #>>44738296 #>>44738783 #>>44738928 #>>44742103 #>>44742626 #
7. Detrytus ◴[] No.44738107{3}[source]
30km/h is actually above the average travel speed you typically achieve in a big city, if you take traffic jams into account.
replies(2): >>44738808 #>>44771166 #
8. jerlam ◴[] No.44738296{3}[source]
The average commute is not entirely within the streets with the 30 km/h speed limit. City planners usually try to route car traffic away from residential areas and places with large numbers of pedestrians, through arterials, freeways, and the like, which will have a higher speed limit.
replies(1): >>44771859 #
9. bluecalm ◴[] No.44738783{3}[source]
Because it's not an average speed but max speed. Higher max speed in traffic doesn't make an average speed higher because it makes the traffic less smooth.

For example in Switzerland on some highways during rush hour the speed limit goes down to 80km/h. They analyzed it and it turns out it's an optimal speed limit for throughput.

10. moralestapia ◴[] No.44738808{4}[source]
Exactly my point.
11. voxl ◴[] No.44738874[source]
Your argument is really "I'd rather people die then drive through your city slower."????
replies(2): >>44770858 #>>44770868 #
12. ◴[] No.44738928{3}[source]
13. jdboyd ◴[] No.44739224[source]
Google seems to suggest that the secret to fast travel in Helsinki is to take public transit.
14. GuB-42 ◴[] No.44739290[source]
> So they hurt quality of life by making it more painful to get anywhere

No, they only made it more painful to get into the city streets by car. And probably not by much, as it only matters if you are not stuck in traffic or waiting at a red light. Helsinki is a walkable city with good public transport, cars are not the only option.

> Mass surveillance under the ever present and weak excuse of “safety”

Speed traps (that's probably what is talked about here) are a very targeted from of surveillance, only taking pictures of speeding vehicles. And if it results in traffic deaths going down to zero, that's not a weak excuse. Still not a fan of "automatic speed enforcement" for a variety of reasons, but mass surveillance is not one of them.

replies(2): >>44770818 #>>44771024 #
15. ◴[] No.44740081[source]
16. wpm ◴[] No.44742103{3}[source]
You don’t need to be either.

Suppose a trip is 5km.

At 50km/h, that trip takes 6 minutes.

At 30km/h, that trip takes 10 minutes.

In practice, this naive way of calculating this doesn’t even reflect reality, because odds are the average speed of a driver through Helsinki was around 30km/h anyways. Going 50km/h between red lights doesn’t actually make your trip faster.

replies(3): >>44749191 #>>44773178 #>>44783128 #
17. McAlpine5892 ◴[] No.44742626{3}[source]
Within a city it really doesn’t matter because it averages out.

I’m an avid cyclist in a US city. There’s a pretty large radius around me in which driving is <= 5 minutes quicker, not counting time to park. Plus cycling often leaves me directly by my destination. I can’t imagine how much more convenient it would be in a dense European city.

Anyways, what the hell is everyone in such a hurry for? Leave five minutes earlier. Cars are absolutely magical. Drivers sitting on mobile couches while expending minimal effort? Magical. So, ya know, adding a few minutes should really be no big deal. Which I doubt it does.

Big, open highways are different. Or at least I’d imagine them to be.

18. calmbonsai ◴[] No.44749191{4}[source]
> In practice, this naive way of calculating this doesn’t even reflect reality, because odds are the average speed of a driver through Helsinki was around 30km/h anyways. Going 50km/h between red lights doesn’t actually make your trip faster.

This is a wonderful explanation.

Though I've lived in Europe (Düsseldorf and London), my default sense of urban density is still American so it was hard to fathom such a low potential average speed. In London, I didn't bother with a car.

19. hgomersall ◴[] No.44770818[source]
Given i'm trying to advocate for speed cameras local to me, I'd be interested in your variety of reasons if you're willing to share?
20. lbrito ◴[] No.44770836[source]
Have you considered there are alternative modes of transportation other than personal vehicles? Some of them are even - gasp - public transportation, and quite efficient at what you want (fast travel).
21. lIl-IIIl ◴[] No.44770858[source]
I think the argument "I'd rather have a higher risk of dying than do this other unpleasant thing".

Which to be fair everyone does all the time (driving habits, eating habits, etc).

replies(1): >>44771121 #
22. dataflow ◴[] No.44770868[source]
You could ban cars entirely. Why wouldn't you? Would you rather people die than drive cars at all?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the parent here; I'm just saying your rebuttal is a strawman.

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23. voxl ◴[] No.44770941{3}[source]
Since we're pretending to know logical fallacies, your deflecting with a slippery slope. Lowering the speed limit by 20 mph is not an extreme change, and it if demonstrates to improve car safety then yes blood should be on your hands for not wanting to drive 20 mph slower.

Alternatively, driving is sometimes necessary to deliver goods and travel. But the funny thing is, is that I would GLADLY ban cars in all cities and heavily invest in high speed rail. Cars would still be needed in this world, but again it's the relative change.

So no, it's not a strawman. If anything it was an ad hom.

replies(1): >>44771041 #
24. ent ◴[] No.44770998[source]
As someone who lives and regularly drives in Helsinki, I feel that most kilometers I drive are on roads that allow 80km/h. The 30km/h limits are mostly in residential areas, close to schools and the city center (where traffic is the limiting factor and it's better to take the public transit).

So while 30km/h might be the limit for most of the roads, you mostly run into those only in the beginnings and ends of trips.

25. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771024[source]
> Speed traps (that's probably what is talked about here) are a very targeted from of surveillance, only taking pictures of speeding vehicles.

Speed cameras in practice will use ALPR, and by the time the hardware capable of doing ALPR is installed, they'll then have the incentive to record every passing vehicle in a database whether it was speeding or not, and whether or not they're "allowed" to do that when the camera is initially installed.

It's like banning end-to-end encryption while promising not to do mass surveillance. Just wait a minute and you know what's coming next.

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26. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771041{4}[source]
"Slippery slope is a logical fallacy" is a logical fallacy. "Doing the proposed thing makes a bad thing easier or more likely" is a valid concern.
replies(1): >>44771094 #
27. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771062[source]
> 50 km/h to 30 km/h on a city commute doesn't make a substantial difference.

This seems like a weird argument. If your commute is an hour at 50 km/h then it's an hour and 40 minutes at 30 km/h, every day, each way. That seems like... quite a lot?

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28. voxl ◴[] No.44771094{5}[source]
Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy. This is an undeniable fact. There is no syllogistic, propositional, predicate, or type theoretic argument you can make that uses a slippery slope to derive a theorem.

Of course, we are not doing proper logic, which is why I balk at bringing up fallacies anyway, it's bad form and idiotic. Nevertheless, the argument that we shouldn't try to improve safety on the roads because that would lead us to the conclusion that we need to ban driving altogether is so incredibly pathetic that you should feel embarrassed for defending it.

replies(1): >>44771604 #
29. gorbachev ◴[] No.44771121{3}[source]
No, that's not correct.

It's: "I'd rather have other people have higher risk of dying than me having to do something I'd kinda of not want to do even though the inconvenience is minimal".

Me, me, me, me and me. Fuck the rest.

replies(1): >>44793510 #
30. gorbachev ◴[] No.44771129{3}[source]
The speed limit is not 30km/h for the entire trip.
31. perching_aix ◴[] No.44771156{3}[source]
Does this not make a double strawman? What's the point of that?

For example, they might be of the opinion that danger doesn't increase linearly with speed, but more aggressively. This would result in a scenario where they could argue for lower speed limits without having to argue for complete car elimination. Case in point, this piece of news.

32. SoftTalker ◴[] No.44771166{4}[source]
Yes, take Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. 4 or 5 lanes in each direction, 30mph speed limit, and average speed is often about 5-10mph.
33. Insanity ◴[] No.44771181{3}[source]
Which city is an hour long drive at 50km/h?

It’s city centre driving that the article talks about.

replies(1): >>44771620 #
34. hgomersall ◴[] No.44771244{3}[source]
There's actually an incentive to not store more data than is necessary, like the jenoptik average speed cameras, which only store info on speeding vehicles: https://www.jenoptik.com/products/road-safety/average-speed-...
replies(1): >>44771774 #
35. numpad0 ◴[] No.44771281{3}[source]
See, the real problem is that people cover too much distances daily. 50km is more than Luxembourg is wide where it's narrowest. They probably don't commute internationally every day there.
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36. masklinn ◴[] No.44771284{3}[source]
Of course it would, but mention that and America loses its mind.
37. crote ◴[] No.44771359{3}[source]
So get the government to purchase speed traps with photo cameras instead of video cameras, triggered by a speed detection loop in the road itself. You know, just like speed traps have been working for decades?

Heck, just leave the ALPR part out of the cameras altogether in order to save costs: have them upload the images to an ALPR service running somewhere in the cloud. You're probably already going to need the uploading part anyways in order to provide evidence, so why even bother with local ALPR?

replies(1): >>44771709 #
38. ath3nd ◴[] No.44771390[source]
> So they hurt quality of life by making it more painful to get anywhere, taking time away from everyone’s lives

The average American mind can't comprehend European public transport and not sitting in a traffic jam and smog for 1 hr to go to their workplace. Some of us walk or cycle for 15 min on our commutes, and some of us even ride bicycles with our children to school. It takes me as much time to reach my workplace with a bike as with a car if you take parking, and one of those things makes me fitter and is for free.

I guess that's one of the reasons people in the US live shorter and sadder than us Europeans. Being stuck in traffic sure makes people grumpy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...

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39. crote ◴[] No.44771395{3}[source]
That's not how it works. It's a 30km/h speed limit for one kilometer in your local neighbourhood until you hit the first through road, then it'll be 50km/h / 60km/h / 80 km/h / 120 km/h as usual, and another one kilometer at 30 km/h at your destination.

In other words, it's 2km at 30km/h plus 48km at 80km/h, versus 2km at 50km/h plus 48km at 80km/h. That's a difference of 1 minute 36 seconds.

replies(2): >>44771759 #>>44774259 #
40. CalRobert ◴[] No.44771400{3}[source]
Are you a car?
41. wolfhumble ◴[] No.44771406{3}[source]
HN Guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
42. CalRobert ◴[] No.44771416{3}[source]
Honestly that would be great.
43. chmod775 ◴[] No.44771444{3}[source]
This is about driving in a city: you spend most of your time accelerating, decelerating, and waiting at intersections. 30 vs 50 km/h doesn't make much of a difference - travel time does not scale linearly with it.
replies(1): >>44772018 #
44. decimalenough ◴[] No.44771460{4}[source]
Actually a lot of people do, because it's cheaper to live and shop on the other side of the border.
45. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771604{6}[source]
A logical fallacy is a form of argument where the conclusion doesn't follow even if the premises are satisfied.

The premises of the slippery slope argument are that a) doing X makes Y more likely, and b) Y is bad. The conclusion to be drawn is that doing X has a negative consequence, namely making the bad thing more likely, which actually follows whenever the premises are satisfied.

replies(1): >>44771717 #
46. grosun ◴[] No.44771620{4}[source]
You can drive through London for an hour in mostly 20mph (~30km/h) zones. Thing is, you're unlikely to be averaging anything even like 20. Even when the limit used to be 30 you weren't either. My old car averaged 16mph, & that included trips out of town at motorway speeds.

When the 20 limits were first introduced, lots of people would speed & overtake, but then you'd catch them up at the next traffic light & the one after etc.

I know London's quite an extreme case, but all a 20 limit means in a lot of stop/start urban areas is that you travel to the next stop at a speed which is less hazardous should you hit something/someone, with far more time to react to all the unpredictable things which happen in busy urban areas, thus decreasing the chances of hitting anything in the first place.

Yeah, it's mildly boring, but driving in cities pretty much always is. Just put on some music or a podcast and take it easy.

47. SoftTalker ◴[] No.44771696{3}[source]
Well Helsinki achieved their goal (zero fatalities) without banning cars, so that argument doesn't really work. And I count myself among those who would not have believed it possible.

Of course in general you can avoid potential bad consequences of a thing by not doing the thing but that's just a tautology.

replies(1): >>44772161 #
48. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771709{4}[source]
> So get the government to purchase speed traps with photo cameras instead of video cameras, triggered by a speed detection loop in the road itself.

Photo cameras would still be doing ALPR. Changing from "take a photo of cars that are speeding" to "take a photo of every car and only send tickets to the ones that are speeding" is a trivial software change that can be done retroactively at any point even after the cameras are installed.

> Heck, just leave the ALPR part out of the cameras altogether in order to save costs: have them upload the images to an ALPR service running somewhere in the cloud. You're probably already going to need the uploading part anyways in order to provide evidence, so why even bother with local ALPR?

How does this address the concern that they're going to use ALPR for location tracking? They would just do the same thing with the cloud service.

49. perching_aix ◴[] No.44771717{7}[source]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

> This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fear mongering in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience. When the initial step is not demonstrably likely to result in the claimed effects, this is called the slippery slope fallacy.

> This is a type of informal fallacy, and is a subset of the continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. Other idioms for the slippery slope fallacy are the thin edge of the wedge, domino fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy

> Informal fallacies are a type of incorrect argument in natural language. The source of the error is not necessarily due to the form of the argument, as is the case for formal fallacies, but is due to its content and context. Fallacies, despite being incorrect, usually appear to be correct and thereby can seduce people into accepting and using them.

For the record, I don't really think slippery slope was invoked there (nor do I think ad hominem was), but I do think it's an actual fallacy. I actually even disagree with them claiming it wasn't a strawman, too - they dramatized and reframed the original point.

replies(1): >>44771869 #
50. Muromec ◴[] No.44771759{4}[source]
Here for example is a map of Amsterdam (click on Wegcategorie en snelheid). Inside the block it's 15 km/h, on blue roads are 30, red roads are 50. The map doesn't color-code the highways, as they don't belong to municipality, but they are 100. https://maps.amsterdam.nl/30km/

It's like that since last December and was somewhat controversial when introduced (expanded), because muh freedoms, but not the kind of enduring controversy.

replies(1): >>44771992 #
51. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771774{4}[source]
The incentive you're referring to is a law. The problem is that a primary entity you don't want tracking everyone is the government, and governments (like other entities) are notoriously ineffective at enforcing rules against themselves. The public also has no reliable means to establish that they're not doing it as they claim, and even if they're not doing it today, you're still rolling out a huge network of cameras waiting to have the switch flipped overnight.
52. kennywinker ◴[] No.44771820{3}[source]
Good for the environment. Good for your health (more walking). Good for traffic safety (less fatalities). Good for the health care system. Good for your mental health and feeling of connectedness to your community. Good for the economy (more local businesses and less large box monopolies means more employment).

And on the cons side… hurts oil execs, national and international retailers, and people who define freedom as having to pay $5 to exxon to get groceries.

53. Muromec ◴[] No.44771829{4}[source]
I think people allocate themselves an hour or what their comfortable time is to commute and travel whatever distance they can cover in that time. If something is too far, they either move closer or pass on it. The exact mode, distance and speed can all vary, but what's budgeted for is time.
54. Muromec ◴[] No.44771859{4}[source]
Most of Amsterdam is 30 km, including through roads. But it's Amsterdam through roads, so it's mostly two lines one way, a dedicated tram track in between, trees that separate the road from a bike path and all that. Actual in-district roads where unsupervised 8 year olds are cycling to school and back are 15 km/h.
55. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771869{8}[source]
Calling it an "informal fallacy" would still make it not a logical fallacy. The slippery slope argument is correct whenever the premises are satisfied.

It's possible in some cases that the conclusion is weak, e.g. if Y is a negative outcome but not a very significant one, but that doesn't make it a fallacy and in particular doesn't justify dismissing arguments of that form as a fallacy when X does make Y significantly more likely and Y is a significant concern.

replies(1): >>44772006 #
56. Muromec ◴[] No.44771876{3}[source]
>You could ban cars entirely. Why wouldn't you? Would you rather people die than drive cars at all?

We don't even ban drugs here and cars are more useful than drugs. It's all about harm reduction and diminishing returns. Also, autoluwe (but not autovrije) districts exist and are a selling point when buying/renting a house, so your attempt at a strawman is rather amusing.

replies(1): >>44772244 #
57. Muromec ◴[] No.44771905[source]
Take better from both worlds -- 1 hour bike commute and save on healthcare costs too.
replies(1): >>44772077 #
58. Muromec ◴[] No.44771925{3}[source]
>Speed cameras in practice will use ALPR

s/will/are/

59. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44771992{5}[source]
That map seems like the thing not to do. They have one section of the city where nearly the whole thing is blue and another section where nearly the whole thing is red, whereas what you would presumably want is to make every other road the alternate speed so that cars can prefer the faster roads and pedestrians can prefer the slower roads, thereby not just lowering speeds near pedestrians but also separating most of the cars from them whatsoever, and meanwhile allowing the cars to travel at higher speeds on the roads where most of the pedestrians aren't.
replies(2): >>44775823 #>>44776004 #
60. perching_aix ◴[] No.44772006{9}[source]
> It's possible in some cases that the conclusion is weak

Not only weak, but completely void, which is why it is an informal fallacy, and thus a fallacy, if I understand it right. You're correct that it's not a logical fallacy specifically, and I do see in retrospect that that was the point of contention (in literal terms anyways). But I'm really not sure that it really was in literal terms you guys were talking, really didn't seem like it.

replies(1): >>44772068 #
61. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44772018{4}[source]
Whether you can hold the maximum as the average doesn't mean there is no proportionality. If you're traveling at 50 km/h and then have to come to a stop and accelerate again your average speed might be 25, but if the maximum speed is 30 then your average speed might be 15.
62. Saline9515 ◴[] No.44772066[source]
It really depends on the city. In Paris, I saw crackheads shooting next to me, people defecating in the train, licking the handle bars (true!), and so on, so yeah...Paris subway is great in theory, in practice, at 8AM, it's war, but smellier.

And the air pollution in the French subway is much worse than what you have outside. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S143846392...

I suspect that most of the bike drivers are affluent service workers who can't be arsed to share the public transport with the plebs.

replies(1): >>44775879 #
63. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44772068{10}[source]
> Not only weak, but completely void, which is why it is an informal fallacy, and thus a fallacy

In those cases the premises wouldn't even be satisfied. It's like saying that "all men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal" is a fallacy because you're disputing that Socrates is a man rather than a fictional character in Plato's writings. That doesn't make the argument a fallacy, it makes the premise in dispute and therefore the argument potentially inapplicable, which is not the same thing.

In particular, it requires you to dispute the premise rather than the form of the argument.

replies(1): >>44772175 #
64. Saline9515 ◴[] No.44772077{3}[source]
Very entitled comment. The food worker who has to stand up for the whole day to make your matcha frappuccino could enjoy some rest on the way home.
replies(2): >>44774709 #>>44775041 #
65. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44772157{4}[source]
> See, the real problem is that people cover too much distances daily.

Which is why most of this is really a housing problem. If you make it too difficult to add new housing in and around cities, people have to live farther away, and in turn show up to the city in cars.

replies(1): >>44774971 #
66. dataflow ◴[] No.44772161{4}[source]
To be clear, what Helsinki achieved is awesome, and I'm not suggesting the outcome was obvious. But that is completely beside the point being discussed here. I was making a rebuttal to a very specific comment and that was it. If the point was not obvious with an outright ban as an example, pretend it said reduce to 10 km/h or something.
67. perching_aix ◴[] No.44772175{11}[source]
You'll need to take this up with the entire field of philosophy, because in literature informal fallacies are absolutely an existing and distinct class of fallacies, with the slippery slope argument being cited among them: https://iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#H2

It's not just a Wikipedia thing or me wordsmithing it into existence. As far as I'm concerned though, arguments the premises of which are not reasonable to think they apply / are complete, or are not meaningfully possible to evaluate, are decidedly fallacious - even if they're logically sound.

replies(1): >>44772274 #
68. dataflow ◴[] No.44772244{4}[source]
Of course it's about harm reduction and diminishing returns. I have nothing against what Helsinki did. I was solely replying to that specific comment. Because it was an awful counterargument to an argument that I had explicitly noted I was not agreeing with in the first place.
69. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44772274{12}[source]
Here's a quote from your link:

> Arguments of this form may or may not be fallacious depending on the probabilities involved in each step.

In other words, it depends on the premises being correct. But all arguments depend on their premises being correct.

The fact that something is widely parroted doesn't mean it's correct -- that's just this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

replies(1): >>44772373 #
70. perching_aix ◴[] No.44772373{13}[source]
> The fact that something is widely parroted doesn't mean it's correct

Argumentum ad populum [0] is itself an informal fallacy, as described on both of our links. What I said wasn't an argumentum ad populum anyways: we're discussing definitions, and definitions do not have truth values.

> But all arguments depend on their premises being correct

But not all incorrect premises are formulated in a reasonable manner. There are degenerate premises that have telltale signs of being misguided. These would be what make informal fallacies. In a way, you could think of them as being incorrect about the premises of what counts as sound logic.

In fact, I ran into this the other day here when while someone said something potentially true, they were also engaging in a No True Scotsman fallacy (also an informal fallacy). One of them claimed that "if it's a fallacy, it's nonsensical to call it true" - except no, that's not the point. The statement can absolutely be true in that case, it's the reasoning that didn't make sense in context. Context they were happy to deny of course, because they were not there to make people's days any better.

Similar here: the slippery slope can be true and real, it's just fallacious to default to it. Conversely [0], it is absolutely possible that people all think the same thing, are actually right, and some other thing becomes true because of it, just super uncommon, so it is fallacious to invert it.

replies(1): >>44772681 #
71. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.44772681{14}[source]
> Argumentum ad populum [0] is itself an informal fallacy, as described on both of our links.

Which gets to the difference between one and the other.

"This is correct because everybody says it is" is a fallacy because it can be true or false independent of whether everybody says it is or not. Even if the premise is true, the conclusion can be false, or vice versa.

Whereas if the premises that X likely leads to Y and Y is bad are both true, then the conclusion that X likely leads to something bad is not independent.

> What I said wasn't an argumentum ad populum anyways: we're discussing definitions, and definitions do not have truth values.

Categories have definitions. Whether a particular thing fits into a particular category can be reasoned about, and a particular miscategorization being common doesn't make it correct.

> But not all incorrect premises are formulated in a reasonable manner. There are degenerate premises that have telltale signs of being misguided. These would be what make informal fallacies. In a way, you could think of them as being incorrect about the premises of what counts as sound logic.

The general form of informal fallacies is that they take some reasoning which is often true (e.g. if everybody believes something then it's more likely to be true than false) and then tries to use it under the assumption that it's always the case, which is obviously erroneous, e.g. the majority of people used to think the sun revolved around the earth.

The category error with slippery slope is that the probability is part of the argument. If 60% of the things people believe are true, that doesn't tell you if "sun revolves around the earth" is one of those things, so you can't use it to prove that one way or the other.

Whereas arguing that taking on a 60% chance of a bad thing happening is bad isn't a claim that the bad thing will definitely happen.

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72. perching_aix ◴[] No.44772800{15}[source]
> is a fallacy because it can be true or false independent of whether everybody says it is or not

Except of course when there is a dependence between the trueness of the statement and how many people are saying it. For example, if I bring up that a certain taxonomization exists and is established, it is pretty crucial for it to be popularly held, otherwise it would cease to both exist and be established.

> Whether a particular thing fits into a particular category can be reasoned about, and a particular miscategorization being common doesn't make it correct.

But you reject the category of informal fallacies being fallacies overall, despite them being definitionally fallacies, no?

73. devilbunny ◴[] No.44773178{4}[source]
> Going 50km/h between red lights doesn’t actually make your trip faster

Except when it does, due to horrible traffic engineering practices.

There were a pair of one-way streets in the downtown of my city. Both attempted to have "green wave" setups for the lights. One worked pretty well, the other was okay, but whatever.

The problem was that the road itself was signed at 30 mph, but the lights were timed at 40 mph. It literally encouraged people to speed if it were not too busy (e.g., after business hours).

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74. AnimalMuppet ◴[] No.44773215{5}[source]
I saw the reverse once. Some town in the (US) Midwest when I was a kid. Downtown had signs that said "The traffic lights are synced for 25 MPH". It wasn't a speed limit, just a statement. When you figured out that they were telling the truth, you started driving 25.
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75. devilbunny ◴[] No.44774232{6}[source]
That would be sensible.

If I'm being very charitable, I would say you might naively set this up so that the next light's stopped traffic clears just before the previous light's traffic arrives, and perhaps that's how it worked during the day (I was a teen, I didn't go downtown during business hours much). After 5, it just encouraged you to punch it to make them all in one go.

76. lrasinen ◴[] No.44774259{4}[source]
2017 Helsinki speed map for reference: https://www.hel.fi/hel2/ksv/Aineistot/Liikennesuunnittelu/Au...

(in support of the above thesis)

77. lbschenkel ◴[] No.44774709{4}[source]
Another problem that exists only in the US as they don't treat you as a slave and make you stand the whole day elsewhere. People have chairs and do use them.
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78. ferongr ◴[] No.44774860{5}[source]
Service workers in coffee shops stand all day here in enlightened Europe too.
79. Earw0rm ◴[] No.44774953{3}[source]
Good.

Freedom to move around the city anonymously does not mean freedom to move around the city in a 2000kg, 100kW heavy machine anonymously.

Even the US recognises that the right to bear arms doesn't extend to an M1A1 Abrams.

80. Earw0rm ◴[] No.44774971{5}[source]
That's true, but people will willingly sacrifice time for a rather small career step up; moving house is hard once you have a family in schools and so on; so in a conurbation you end up with 1hr+ commutes anyway.

I don't think most are math-minded enough to factor commute time and cost into any salary calculation, if there's a 10% pay bump they'll take it even if all the gains get eaten up travel.

81. twixfel ◴[] No.44775041{4}[source]
Driving a car in the isn’t restful in the slightest.
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82. Saline9515 ◴[] No.44775058{5}[source]
The parent was talking about public transport. Sitting in a bus is restful, you can read a book or watch a movie, or just dream away.
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83. andriamanitra ◴[] No.44775216[source]
> So they hurt quality of life by making it more painful to get anywhere, taking time away from everyone’s lives. You can achieve no traffic deaths by slowing everyone to a crawl. That doesn’t make it useful or good. The goal should be fast travel times and easy driving while also still reducing injuries, which newer safety technologies in cars will achieve.

Like others have pointed out making road speeds faster barely makes a dent in travel times. The absolute best way to reduce travel times is to build denser cities, which incidentally means less parking, narrower roads, and, most importantly, fewer cars. In a densely populated area it's impossible to match the throughput of even a small bike path with anything built for cars. Safety is just a bonus you get for designing better, more efficient, more livable cities.

84. crote ◴[] No.44775823{6}[source]
Amsterdam is an old city. The "everything is slow" part has extremely narrow roads, which were never designed for significant amounts of through traffic and realistically can never be made safe. Ideally they would indeed have a bunch of faster access roads, but that's just not physically possible.
85. ath3nd ◴[] No.44775879{3}[source]
> I suspect that most of the bike drivers are affluent service workers who can't be arsed to share the public transport with the plebs.

Fairly often they are postal or delivery workers. Are those the affluent service workers that we keep hearing about?

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86. Muromec ◴[] No.44776004{6}[source]
The everything is red part is only red for throughroads and has different density compared to everytging is blue part.

The separating part is already done, so what you see is lowering the speed from 50 tp 30 even on the roads where the cars were funnelef into.

87. ◴[] No.44776108{6}[source]
88. Saline9515 ◴[] No.44776121{4}[source]
My comment was not about those people, who are minimum-wage temp workers and a tiny minority compared to the mass of cyclists in Paris.

In the case of Helsinki, they don't have a particularly outstanding biking infrastructure, but they have stellar public transports. And clean, very clean. I'd choose that everyday, which is much more inclusive and far less dangerous for everyone. Especially in a aging society.

89. rudolftheone ◴[] No.44783128{4}[source]
I'm not an advocate for speeding in the cities, but this example is really bad - it says my trip time will be extended by 66%! For a really short one, it doesn't matter, but when you drive 40 minutes initially, it's really unacceptable for most.
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90. lIl-IIIl ◴[] No.44793510{4}[source]
I agree. I also think it's natural and something we do all the time.
91. wpm ◴[] No.44802067{5}[source]
> it says my trip time will be extended by 66%

Yeah 66% is a higher number, so it seems worse if you literally don't think about it at all.

Its 4 minutes. If its that important your car would have lights and sirens on it.

And it isn't a bad example, unless things are quite different in Finland, the vast majority of car trips taken in the US are under 6 miles (~10km). If you're taking a 40 minute trip on crowded, surface streets in a dense city and not going on a motorway, that's your choice, and frankly, quite selfish of you to not expect to go slow. I frankly don't care how long it takes you to get somewhere in a huge car through a city going faster means endangering other people.