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252 points CharlesW | 31 comments | | HN request time: 1.711s | source | bottom
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fidotron ◴[] No.44457084[source]
There are definite philosophical questions over the merits of adding noise, but the problem with their example here is their denoising process appears to excessively blur everything, so both it and the synthesized grain image look noticeably less sharp than the source. The grain itself also looks too much like basic noise, and not really grain like.
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1. rainworld ◴[] No.44457423[source]
These days, when we see noise/grain in an end product it has likely been added in post-production. So, ideally, studios would provide distributors with a noiseless source plus grain synthesis parameters. Bonus: many viewers would welcome an option to turn it off.
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2. NoMoreNicksLeft ◴[] No.44457784[source]
I'll keep the film grain, I just want to be able to turn off laugh tracks.
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3. dylan604 ◴[] No.44457942[source]
> provide distributors with a noiseless source plus grain synthesis parameters.

What parameters would that be? Make it look like Eastman Ektachrome High-Speed Daylight Film 7251 400D? For years, people have taken film negative onto telecines and created content of grain to be used as overlays. For years, colorists have come up with ways of simulating the color of specific film stocks by using reference film with test patterns that's been made available.

If a director/producer wants film grain added to their digital content, that's where it should be done in post. Not by some devs working for a streaming platform. The use of grain or not is a creative decision made by the creators of the work. That's where it should remain

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4. bee_rider ◴[] No.44458163[source]
Netflix has their own in-house studio, right? The encoding and lossy compression is going to happen anyway. It seems like an easy win, for their directors to provide a description of the grain they want, so it can be replicated on the user side.
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5. rainworld ◴[] No.44458275[source]
And yet here we are: DNR -> fancy grain -> DNR -> basic, approximated grain. Because noise doesn’t compress. And you get compression artifacts even in Blu-ray releases. What’s the point of applying fancy grain when what a lot viewers end up seeing is an ugly smudge?
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6. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44458299[source]
> If a director/producer wants film grain added to their digital content, that's where it should be done in post. Not by some devs working for a streaming platform. The use of grain or not is a creative decision made by the creators of the work. That's where it should remain

Why? If you're spending a significant chunk of your bits just transmitting data that could be effectively recreated on the client for free, isn't that wasteful? Sure, maybe the grains wouldn't be at the exact same coordinates, but it's not like the director purposefully placed each grain in the first place.

I recognize that the locally-produced grain doesn't look quite right at the moment, but travel down the hypothetical with me for a moment. If you could make this work, why wouldn't you?

--------

...and yes, I acknowledge that once the grain is being added client side, the next logical step would be "well, we might as well let viewers turn it off." But, once we've established that client-side grain makes sense, what are you going to do about people having preferences? Should we outlaw de-noising video filters too?

I agree that the default setting should always match what the film maker intended—let's not end up with a TV motion smoothing situation, please for the love of god—but if someone actively decides "I want to watch this without the grain for my own viewing experience"... okay? You do you.

...and I will further acknowledge that I would in fact be that person! I hate grain. I modded Cuphead to remove the grain and I can't buy the Switch version because I know it will have grain. I respect the artistic decision but I don't like it and I'm not hurting anyone.

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7. dylan604 ◴[] No.44458425{3}[source]
The grain is there to hide the ugly smudge. that's the question they rather you didn't ask
8. kridsdale1 ◴[] No.44458579{3}[source]
Because it looks amazing in the editing studio. Just like the sound mix is incredible on the Atmos monitors in the sound mixing room, even though the home viewers have a soundbar at best and tiny stereo speakers in a flat panel typically. The dynamics and dialog channel will be fucked. But that’s user error.
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9. wbl ◴[] No.44458628{4}[source]
Movies are best enjoyed in the theater.
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10. kmeisthax ◴[] No.44459072[source]
Currently, in order to deal with noisy masters, Netflix has to either:

1. Denoise the master, then add AV1 FGS metadata to tell players how to reconstruct the noise in the master (which is what the blog post is about) to get back the original image the director saw and approved

2. Do nothing (which is what they were doing), and let some of the noise get blurred or erased by the quantization step of the encoding process, or worse, burn shittons of coding bits trying to describe the exact noise in the frame, which hurts visual quality of the things people actually look at

All of these imply changes to the image that the director decided on to get around the underlying fact that deliberately adding noise to an image is, from a signal processing perspective, really stupid. But if we are going to do it, we can at least ensure it happens as far down the chain as possible so that Netflix's encoding doesn't destroy the noise. That's the idea you responded to: have the production company deliver a master with FGS metadata instead of baked-in film grain.

11. dylan604 ◴[] No.44459153{3}[source]
what does having an in-house studio have to do with it? they stream more content than just their own, and so they would not have creative license to alter content. they would only have some type of distribution license to stream the content as provided
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12. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44459170{4}[source]
This is exactly why theatrical releases are so important to movie producers, isn't it?
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13. dylan604 ◴[] No.44459204{3}[source]
> Why? If you're spending a significant chunk of your bits just transmitting data that could be effectively recreated on the client for free, isn't that wasteful? Sure, maybe the grains wouldn't be at the exact same coordinates, but it's not like the director purposefully placed each grain in the first place.

I'm sorry your tech isn't good enough to recreate the original. That does not mean you get to change the original because your tech isn't up to the task. Update your task to better handle the original. That's like saying an image of the Starry Night doesn't retain the details, so we're going to smear the original to fit the tech better. No. Go fix the tech. And no, this is not fixing the tech. It is a band-aid to cover the flaws in the tech.

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14. dylan604 ◴[] No.44459256{5}[source]
Theatrical release qualifies for certain awards and shiny statues. That's their concern. If a streaming platform wants to give them enough cash to beat out projected box office earnings, then they'll take it if they don't have any grandiose visions of golden statues.
15. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44459305{4}[source]
Because the specks of grain aren't at the exact same coordinates? What differences are we talking about here exactly?
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16. dylan604 ◴[] No.44459377{5}[source]
The differences are actual film grain vs some atrocious RGB noise artificially added by the streamer. How is that unclear? What else could we be talking about?
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17. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44459423{6}[source]
Right, the current implementation is bad.

In theory though, I don't see any reason why client-side grain that looks identical to the real thing shouldn't be achievable, with massive bandwidth savings in the process.

It won't be, like, pixel-for-pixel identical, but that was why I said no director is placing individual grain specks anyway.

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18. supertrope ◴[] No.44460008{4}[source]
Because they previously did not do commercials their original TV shows were not written with pauses every few minutes. They have approved cameras. They spend heavily on movie star salaries and skimp on set production.
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19. toast0 ◴[] No.44460050{4}[source]
> I'm sorry your tech isn't good enough to recreate the original. That does not mean you get to change the original because your tech isn't up to the task.

The market has spoken and it says that people want to watch movies even when they don't have access to a 35mm projector or a projector than can handle digital cinema packages, so nobody is seeing the original outside a theater.

Many viewers are bandwidth limited, so there's tradeoffs ... if this film grain stuff improves available picture quality at a given bandwidth, that's a win. IMHO, Netflix blogs about codec things seem to focus on bandwidth reduction, so I'm never sure if users with ample bandwidth end up getting less quality or not; that's a valid question to ask.

20. notpushkin ◴[] No.44461065{3}[source]
I think at some point studios will give de-grained versions to Netflix directly.
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21. fc417fc802 ◴[] No.44461220{7}[source]
> with massive bandwidth savings in the process

Let's be clear. The alternative isn't "higher bandwidth" it's "aggressive denoising during stream encode". If the studio is adding grain in post then describing that as a set of parameters will result in a higher quality experience for the vast majority of those viewing it in this day and age.

22. fc417fc802 ◴[] No.44461244{3}[source]
> once we've established that client-side grain makes sense, what are you going to do about people having preferences?

I already normalize audio (modern US produced media is often atrocious), modify gamma and brightness, and probably some other stuff. Oh and it's not as though I'm viewing on a color calibrated monitor in the first place.

The purists can purchase lossless physical copies. The rest of us would benefit from such improvements.

23. dylan604 ◴[] No.44461338{7}[source]
If the original is an actual production shot on film, the film grain is naturally part of it. Removing it never looks good. If it is something shot on a digital camera and had grain added in post, then you can go back to before the grain was added and then do it client side without degradation. But you can never have identical when it originated on film. That's like saying you can take someone's freckles away and put them back in post just rearranged and call it the same.
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24. dylan604 ◴[] No.44461384{5}[source]
Again, I ask, what does this have to do with anything regarding TFA? Anything in-house studio produces will not be shot on film.
25. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.44462434{8}[source]
Sorry, I am talking about the case where grain was added in post. You originally said, and I quoted:

> If a director/producer wants film grain added to their digital content, that's where it should be done in post.

To me, this philosophy seems like a patent waste of bandwidth.

26. account42 ◴[] No.44463016[source]
GPs point is that those streaming platforms will remove the grain anyway and that process loses information compared to working with the original.
27. account42 ◴[] No.44463054{4}[source]
Yeah I always roll my eyes when people get so mad about compressed (as in reduced dynamic range) audio. I just want to watch / listen to stuff without annoying my neighbors and don't particularly care whether or not the volume of gunshots is realistic.
28. account42 ◴[] No.44463068{5}[source]
What, cramped into a room with tons of other people who can't help themselves from making noise or moving in front of you while you only have limited and overpriced snack options. As nice as a big screen and professional sound equipment is the downsides make the experience strictly worse than a big OLED + half decent soundbar.
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29. account42 ◴[] No.44463080[source]
Why not just watch things where the creators don't feel they need to add laugh tracks in order to keep the audience engaged in the first place.
30. dylan604 ◴[] No.44464684{6}[source]
You must live alone. Even at home, you have people called family or friends that do not necessarily sit idle while watching TV. Watching with kids at home is worse than at the movies because they are at home and don't have the same social rules to follow. People at home are also not under the social rules of not using their devices, and second screening has become the norm.

Yes, a theater probably holds more people than your typical viewing experience at home. Unless you go to the movies during the week and avoid crowds. The last movie I saw at the theater was on a Tuesday after opening weekend as 4pm. There might have been 2 other people in the entire theater. It was amazing.

31. dylan604 ◴[] No.44464696{4}[source]
At some point, it would not surprise me for Netflix to require this to be provided. While not negating what you concluded, I just think the impetus for the result is important to distinguish.