Spaced repetition systems have gotten better

Spaced repetition is time-optimised, but it isn't self-discipline optimised, nor motivation-optimised. If you're limited by time, it's very efficient, but it drains motivation. If you're anywhere close to being limited by motivation (or, failing that, self-discipline), it just causes burnout and failure.

I credit Anki to my success at GCSEs and A Levels despite having a head injury, and I also credit it to me burning out so hard I took a gap year!

And I'm enjoying the gap year, but Anki made it a near necessity.

There was an interesting post here awhile back about autonomy and motivation. The gist was people's motivation is proportional to their autonomy. This is quite intuitive, you can see people are really motivated when they have autonomy (think kids with Minecraft, musicians with instruments). One terrible thing about Anki is that it probably is horrible for autonomy. Quite possibly using anki actually has a negative effect on motivation.

I don't understand, wouldn't it be worse for motivation to take longer to achieve the same results?

I would say the implementations are time optimized, over the others. I’m building a language learning application, and have put in a lot of effort to make sure that the Spaced Repeition is motivation-optimized.

It’s centered around your performance and review times, to make sure you aren’t struggling to much; no due dates to avoid Anki slogs; gamified with some internal mechanics; dopaminergically influenced with aspects of randomness.

Spaced Repetition is just an equation (SM2 is laughable simple), but a lot of applications just slap a UI on it and call it a day, but that’s not the only way to use it!

Motivation is some combination of real and perceived effort Vs expected reward. Shorter isn't always better. For eg. Counting every single calorie is the shorter way to lose weight, but for most people, eating approximately healthy is more optimal from an effort /motivation poi t of view.

Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.

Keep that up every day and you'll burn out much faster with option 1 than option 2. Now, maybe you have enough motivation for that not to matter, or the self-discipline to keep going - as I did in my A levels - but don't be surprised if it kills your interest in the subject.

What's worse for motivation than taking longer?

Boredom?

Feeling like what you're doing is low-quality or superficial?

Doing something artificial for purely external reasons like grades or exams?

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me I would take slower progress over any of these... which makes spaced repetition a hard sell.

I‘m not super well versed in the literature but I know this has been researched, and—unless you are being hyperbolic—it completely fails the sniff test.

As OP points out, SRS is optimized for memory retention. You will almost certainly encounter many more words watching a two hour long video, but you certainly won‘t retain nearly as many words as half an hour of SRS.

Actually you can combine the two. Use the two hour long video to encounter new vocabulary in context, put the new vocabulary in your Anki deck, and review it with optimized SRS. You get the best of both worlds. As a bonus you often remember the source which will help you recall... This is actually common enough pattern that it has a name: Vocabulary mining.

I think both have a place. When someone is starting for the first time, they're enthusiastic, but they haven't built faith in the process yet. It's easy for them to lose confidence if they're putting in work but the results are slow or ambiguous. I think it's best to take advantage of their beginner's enthusiasm and kick them off with something higher effort that is guaranteed to show them clear results. After they build confidence they can settle in to something lower effort (aka "more sustainable") where the benefit is longer-term and you don't see dramatic results every week.

IMO, the most limiting feature is that spaced repetition is a method for memorization, but memorization is only one part of learning and it's very often not the most prevalent part.

But when memorization applies, gamification is a really good way to avoiding burnout (as long as you don't overexpose yourself to it). There are many spaced repetition games for children, I don't know why people make so few of them for adults. (But then, fearing the duolingo owl is a popular meme nowadays.)

That sounds very interesting! Do you still have a link to that post?

Yeah, and flashcards generally work better when you're reinforcing existing learning. Learning by flashcards is hellish for me.

> What's worse for motivation than taking longer?

Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.

See the popularity of Duolingo vs Anki as an example! Or Quizlet vs Anki. Or the scores of students who revise by half-watching dopamine-ified youtube videos rather than doing past papers and flashcards. If you ask people, they'll often say they care for efficiency, but their revealed preferences say otherwise.

Doing large amounts (hours) of Anki day in day out is truly miserable, particularly when the alternatives can be quite enjoyable. And if you burn out before you achieve your goal, is the "efficiency" really worth it vs going slower but eventually getting there?

Plus, a lot of people want to learn e.g. a language because they enjoy the process as well as the end result. Making the process miserable in order to get to the end result faster isn't always a good tradeoff.

Which is what it's about. It's a tradeoff. I'm a big proponent of flashcards, but I think it's important to recognise that you're trading enjoyment for speed in most cases.

>I also credit it to me burning out so hard I took a gap year!

Do you think targeting a sub-90% difficulty could help reduce burnout? My experience is that working to recall something I'm on the verge of forgetting can be very effortful.

Maybe an 80/20 approach where you only create flashcards for the 20% of knowledge that's most useful? E.g. for a language, you could create 1000 flashcards for the 1000 most common words which allow for basic real-world communication?

Mastery by George Leonard touches on some of this; learners can fall into 3 categories during the learning process: Dabblers, Obsessives, and Hackers. Each one has strengths and weaknesses, but the core philosophy is that "mastery takes time". After 2-3 years of practice, you know all the moves in a school of martial arts, or all the chord progressions for an instrument. But its the "after" where you either continue to refine or move on to the next skill.

Anything advertising that you can learn X in Y days isn't addressing that "after" period. Once you've learned the skill, you need motivation toward applying it, which in turn refines your skills. Conversely, becoming hyper fixated can be detrimental to overall skill. "Jack of all trades, master of none" HOWEVER the rest of the quote goes "but often times better than a master of one"

Sometimes you gotta slog through the boring bits to progress.

I experimented with this, actually. The default was 0.85 iirc, and I tried pushing it up over time to 0.91, but I ended up reducing it to 0.83. It isn't that many more cards, and it makes it far less laborious.

My personal approach with A levels was to strictly learn content through classes, then organise things (which teaches you a lot on its own!) and make my own flashcards. Then I used the flashcards to keep it fresh till exam season. It was crazy, during revision lessons everyone else in the class would be going "uhhh I have no clue, that was two years ago" while I'd just know it.

I have tried different approaches, including using other people's flashcards (not as good - objectively they were high quality, but you gain a lot from writing your own + tailoring to your own way of looking at things) and learning from them (for my driving theory - terrible idea!). That hybrid approach is the best I've found, and the one I intend to use for my degree.

It's very likely that you're using Anki in situations that will burn you out and drain your motivation anyway.

> Learning by flashcards is hellish for me.

Wait, you're putting yourself in a situation where the first time you see a card, you have no idea what it is?

I've tried it in a few situations (e.g. my driving license theory test) and yeah it's absolutely awful and I quickly stopped. My modus operandi is obsidian notes->flashcards->revision to keep my knowledge up. However, a lot of people do actually do that!

People will genuinely download top x wordlists for a language and try to learn from them. Hideous, but they do it.

Nah, I love physics. It's just a lot!

Edit: It's worth noting I had a nasty head injury that was slowing me down. Optimising my learning was a necessity, and the injury meant I spent more time studying than my peers, in more optimised and less enjoyable ways, to get the same result.

> Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.

This is so well known that it was covered extensively in the book Make It Stick[1], that you might as well call it the "student fallacy." (And they might have; ironically, I've forgotten if they do or not!)

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science-Successful-Learnin...

> People will genuinely download top x wordlists for a language and try to learn from them.

I’ve done that, and I’ve even created a whole SRS app to learn kanji which does that by default (https://shodoku.app).

I think this is common practice for the first 1000 words, and I don’t exactly recommend against it. Unless your target language is close to another language you already know, you are going to have to learn your first 1000 words somehow, and you will not learn them by comprehensible input in any reasonable time, unless you are actually living in the language area, and cannot use other languages.

I actually bought a vocabulary book which has 1000 basic words and example sentences and puts them in categories (e.g. work, travel, food, etc.). I then downloaded an Anki deck from the book and use it. To be fair though, I first read the word in the book, and practice it with a red-sheet (albeit in reverse, i.e. from english and try to recall it in japanese).

As for my kanji learning app. I made it so the first time you see a kanji, it does not hide any information, and it shows you the strokes in order as you write it on first encounter, after that you review it normally.

I appreciate you replying to my comments!

I confess I'm interested to hear your thoughts re: the usefulness of SRS from a more holistic perspective.

Gwern writes:

>...if, over your lifetime, you will spend more than 5 minutes looking something up or will lose more than 5 minutes as a result of not knowing something, then it’s worthwhile to memorize it with spaced repetition. 5 minutes is the line that divides trivia from useful data.

https://gwern.net/spaced-repetition

My sense is that there are very few facts I will spend more than 5 minutes of my life repeatedly looking up. And even then, many of those are facts that I will naturally end up memorizing regardless of SRS, since I'm using the info so often.

I understand the utility of SRS for test takers or language learners. When Google is impractical or unavailable, memorization makes sense. But for everything else -- why not just Google it?

> Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.

The first part is definitely untrue, you won't learn any vocabulary spending an hour watching an educational video, you'll be lucky if you remember one new word tomorrow. That half hour on Anki will be spread out over six months, and will teach you 20 words.

As for the second part, doing Anki is like doing through any sort of timeline that spits out random rewards and failures. I get a rush whenever I remember stuff, and I get bummed out when I forget; it's basically facebook.

I understand why one wouldn't think that with single-word vocabulary flashcards, because they are horrible to do and unhelpful. You should be running sentences, not words. Words rarely translate well, change form when they are in sentences, and often show up as part of seemingly ungrammatical set phrases.

Look up Deci/Ryan, self determination theory.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'm a particularly good person to ask about this. I've experimented with Anki for areas other than test taking and language learning, but it didn't stick.

I used it for some geography stuff, and that was fine I suppose, I like geography, but I stopped after a while.

I find it easy to remember things if I care about them. Ergo, if I care enough to put it in Anki, Anki is useless.

Particularly with LLMs being a thing, you don't even need to concretely know what you're looking for - just give chatgpt a vague description and let it list out suggestions until it jogs your memory.

When it comes to physics etc, you'll end up memorising everything relevant to the areas you actually use. In areas like "What is the star type of a star with a temperature of 6000K" - something that I memorised using Anki, and which took me a while - if I actually worked in that area of astrophysics I'd obviously learn that quite quickly.

I suppose it could be useful for maintaining knowledge. Had I not been burnt out I would have kept up my flashcards through my gap year, which would've presumably been quite useful - I'm currently going through the slog of relearning how to integrate so I'm not totally embarrassed at uni!

Yeah, 100%. I worded my comment a bit awkwardly, but that's exactly what I was getting at too :)

Oh thanks, I didn't know there was a name for the thing I've been doing. Vocabulary mining is a nice term.

I agree with your general point too. People are correct to say SRS only helps with memorising and not with learning, but this is only a problem if you haven't developed functional learning techniques or you have to learn something you don't enjoy. Good learning essentially hinges on interest and excitement, and making the thing you're learning relatable or catchy.

If you have exams and deadlines, this can be hard. If you've no exams and no deadlines, just flashcard anything interesting that comes your way, include context and jokes, and focus on enjoying yourself. Delete flashcards with a smile if they annoy you a few repetitions down the line. Make all your own cards. Invent funny stuff, find quirky facts that stand out.

E.g., the area of Ireland is 84,421km^2 - all powers of 2. I never had a "yardstick" for big areas, now I do. Borneo is nearly nine Irelands in size.

Or another example, French Polynesia has 121 islands, 75 of which are inhabited. I found this fact shocking, so I thought I'd put it in to a flashcard. After some quick reflection, I'm sure you too could come up with ways to make those numbers stand out.

Another - the title of Wittgenstein's "Tractatus Logico Philosophicus" - where truth tables were popularised - ends in SOS. No more forgetting the title, or where truth tables are from!

In summary - learn things you like, and make it spicy for you.

Fellow longtime Anki user, I can say letting myself drop from 0.9 to 0.85 was like letting myself experience the taste of clover honey for the first time. Accepting a slightly worse hit rato in exchange for 2/3rds the workload made life considerably more pleasant.