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377 points NaOH | 26 comments | | HN request time: 1.019s | source | bottom
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HanClinto ◴[] No.43793725[source]
This is so needed. This was a very encouraging article.

"Being a fan is all about bringing the enthusiasm. It’s being a champion of possibility. It’s believing in someone. And it’s contagious. When you’re around someone who is super excited about something, it washes over you. It feels good. You can’t help but want to bring the enthusiasm, too."

Stands in contrast to the Hemingway quote: "Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors."

It feels socially safe, easy, and destructive to be a critic.

I'd rather be a fan.

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1. vunderba ◴[] No.43794376[source]
> It feels socially safe, easy, and destructive to be a critic. I'd rather be a fan.

Trotting out absolute statements does no one any good. I could just as easily spin this on its head and say that it feels socially safe to always show blind enthusiasm for the latest trend lest you be labelled a "hater".

It feels like we're just redefining critic to be synonymous with cynic. There's no reason that you can't simultaneously be both fan and a critic of X.

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2. MrJohz ◴[] No.43794580[source]
In fact, the best critics of something are often its biggest fans. Roger Ebert, for example, wrote some pretty critical pieces, but nobody can deny that he was driven primarily by a love of cinema. Or take politics: I've seen people complain that left-wing commentators were too critical of Biden when they should have been criticising Trump, but often it's easier — and more useful — to criticise the things you like in the hope that they will improve, rather than spending all your time criticising something you don't like that will never listen to you.

That said, it's still important to take the time to sing the praises of something you like. If Ebert had spent all his time talking down bad films, reading his columns would have been painful drudgery (see also: CinemaSins, Nostalgia Critic, and similar attempts at film-criticism-by-cynicism). A good critic wants their target to succeed, and celebrates when that happens.

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3. _DeadFred_ ◴[] No.43795747[source]
If you're a real critic, absolutely. But most of what passes for criticism today is just hindsight dressed up as insight. It ignores the fact that choices are made in a fog, assumes outcomes were inevitable, and retroactively assigns blame. It feels like scorekeeping not being a rational/fair critic.
4. RyanOD ◴[] No.43795805[source]
It is a real skill to critique a thing and not come off as complaining about it.
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5. lanyard-textile ◴[] No.43796069[source]
The absolute irony of this comment :)
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6. deadbabe ◴[] No.43796322[source]
Irony is often the language of truth.
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7. memhole ◴[] No.43796696[source]
Very accurate description. I think this gets missed sometimes. Sometimes you’re criticizing because you know a subject well and want to see it improved.
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8. ◴[] No.43796789[source]
9. atq2119 ◴[] No.43796936{3}[source]
See also: code review
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10. tpmoney ◴[] No.43797665{4}[source]
Two things I try to do in every code review:

If I’m doing the review, I try to find at least one or two items to call out as great ideas/moves. Even if it’s as simple as refactoring a minor pain point.

If I’m being reviewed I always make sure to thank/compliment comments that either suggest something I genuinely didn’t consider or catch a dumb move that isn’t wrong but would be a minor pain point in the future.

As you note, code reviews can be largely “negative feedback” systems, and I find encouraging even a small amount of positivity in the process keeps it from becoming soul sucking

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11. jasondigitized ◴[] No.43797687[source]
Oh the irony - Sometimes people need to stfu and root for something without pointing out how it could be better. "Awesome! Did you think about..... STFU!"
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12. gyomu ◴[] No.43798605[source]
Feels like engaging with the logic and content of an argument is more in the spirit of this website than replying “stfu”.
13. Jensson ◴[] No.43798952[source]
> Oh the irony - Sometimes people need to stfu and root for something without pointing out how it could be better. "Awesome! Did you think about..... STFU!"

There are many such people already, there are also many haters, and many people in the middle. This diversity is how humanity managed to get this far, we need all of them.

14. worik ◴[] No.43799322[source]
"You should...."
15. roenxi ◴[] No.43799561[source]
The medium is hard to separate from the message; it is built in to threaded commenting by the voting system. People upvote the comments that best express ideas that they support and as a consequence it is usually hard to add to the most highly upvoted comment. But that is the most obvious comment to attach opposing views to. That leads to a predictable tick/tock thread structure where every 2nd post is thematically similar but every other post is contrary.

The irony here is present but better interpreted as the forum structure being biased towards criticism.

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16. hackpelican ◴[] No.43800444{5}[source]
In some companies, (ahem… Amazon), engineers are judged by their code review/comment ratio. Especially L4 engineers trying to make it to L5.

So actually putting positive comments in the code review isn’t really much appreciated.

I gained this habit and now for me, a comment is a suggestion of improvement, I deliver praise out-of-band.

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17. wavemode ◴[] No.43801064{6}[source]
> engineers are judged by their code review/comment ratio

It's a horrible practice with adverse incentives, and one of the reasons I'm glad I no longer work there

(and easily gameable, anyways - people would just DM each other patches they were unsure of, before submitting an actual CR)

18. atoav ◴[] No.43801767[source]
The truth is that for many people criticism and contrarianism serves an extremely simple function: It allows them to sound smart and distinguish themselves from others.

And that explains 90% of all the criticism that has ever been given.

19. atoav ◴[] No.43801773{3}[source]
Often is the sometimes of never.
20. atoav ◴[] No.43801816[source]
Good observation: The biggest critics are indeed often the biggest fans — but funnily enough often just in a consumerist way.

If you listen to interviees with great writers, musicians, painters or actors you will often find it surprising when they tell you which other arrists they like. That is because the people making the stuff often have a much more open mind about what constitutes interesting and/or good writing, music, paintings or acting.

To me as an practitioner it feels at time that these "enthusiastic consumer critics" are incredibly bitter about not being able to live from the art they love like the ones they critique, so they carve out their niche and give themselves self-worth by playing a strong role in the field they love.

With good critics this love is the predominant message, with bad critics it is the bitterness.

21. sethammons ◴[] No.43802692{3}[source]
Instead of statements, I favor questions. Instead of "I, me, you, etc,", I favor communal "we, the code, the team." Be specific when possible. I try to focus on what should be done vs what shouldn't be done.

"Why did you not handle $situation" -> "how does this code handle $situation?"

"You shouldn't do $thing" -> "$thing has sharp edges, see $link-to-more-info. The general approach used in the code base is to $alternative."

22. lanyard-textile ◴[] No.43802700{3}[source]
You have a very insightful comment here — one small caveat however: it’s the crowd that is biased towards criticism, not the forum structure.

And this just made me realize why I don’t like HN very much. We live in a bizarre state of mind here with a common interest of creation and furtherance, but simultaneously inside the belly of the beast, it is a forum of unconditional criticism.

It’s in good faith obviously. People see an idea and critique it to the edge of existence with the desire help or further an idea; but it becomes a tick/tock that pulls the original idea apart beyond recognition.

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything productive come out of the comments on HN, ever. It’s just a slew of people who say you can always do better after taking a long look at your idea, assuming your intended goal is perfection.

The irony is present because of the poster. It is explained by the contents of the post, not by the thread order in which it resides.

:) This is nice closure for engaging less though, sincerely. I see I’ve fallen victim to this mindset with this very comment, in its own irony.

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23. tpmoney ◴[] No.43803359{6}[source]
The more I learn about how the bigger companies do business, the happier I am my dreams of working for them never materialized. I encounter enough stupid things caused by businesses trying to measure difficult things. I would hate to work in a place where the proper mode of conduct – praise in public, criticize in private – is flipped on its head for the purposes of someone's spreadsheet.
24. dostick ◴[] No.43804123{4}[source]
I am curious, if HN discussion too critical then what is better out there? HN is less cynical and critical than other mediums, X, Substack, Medium. On HN at least it’s more of an intellectual people who see criticising out of spite as waste. Criticism is constructive comparing to other platforms where it is mostly to make critic feel smart or belonging to some side or group. On HN every commenter stand on their own intellectual merit, so to speak.
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25. nonameiguess ◴[] No.43804281[source]
The original comment already contained its own irony, directing unfair criticism at critics. Hemingway wasn't exactly some impartial observer of human behavior here. He was butthurt that a published commentator once said something bad about his writing.

The reality of military operations, which Hemingway himself probably knew having served himself (though maybe the situation has changed as I can't claim familiarity with the specifics of how it worked over a century ago), is that the biggest critic of any unit involved in a battle post-battle is the unit itself. Every action is always followed by an after-action review, in which you go over what went well, what went wrong, what you should continue, and what you should change. It's neither unrelentingly positive nor negative. It's honest.

But for whatever reason, much of the creative class seems to think anyone who isn't able to do something themselves is universally unqualified to comment on the work of others. Plenty of rather obvious examples show this to be ridiculous. The top coaches and trainers throughout history were rarely great athletes themselves.

26. lanyard-textile ◴[] No.43806448{5}[source]
It is miles better here for sure. If I were wanting to garner criticism from anywhere, this would be an intellectual and respectful crowd for it.

I like the tightly curated communities of discord, but that comes with its own obvious problems. I don’t have a great answer unfortunately.

Which is perhaps a hint that I ask for the impossible, lol.