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Pope Francis has died

(www.reuters.com)
916 points phillipharris | 24 comments | 21 Apr 25 08:00 UTC | HN request time: 5.175s | source | bottom
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haunter ◴[21 Apr 25 08:11 UTC] No.43749471[source]▶
RIP.

His speech yesterday (he dictated it I guess) was very very political, not on the usual level, felt like a finally "all out" for me.

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/urbi/do...

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tetris11 ◴[21 Apr 25 08:29 UTC] No.43749561[source]▶
> I express my closeness to the sufferings of Christians in Palestine and Israel, and to all the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. The growing climate of anti-Semitism throughout the world is worrisome. Yet at the same time, I think of the people of Gaza, and its Christian community in particular, where the terrible conflict continues to cause death and destruction and to create a dramatic and deplorable humanitarian situation. I appeal to the warring parties: call a ceasefire, release the hostages and come to the aid of a starving people that aspires to a future of peace!
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hersko ◴[21 Apr 25 14:15 UTC] No.43752261[source]▶
Tangentially related: why do so many people call for a ceasefire, when a ceasefire is generally temporary. It wouldn't resolve any of the underlying reasons for the war. He should be calling for surrender.
replies(2): >>43753061 #>>43753182 #
kelnos ◴[21 Apr 25 15:29 UTC] No.43753061[source]▶
Who should surrender, though? At this point in time, if Hamas were to surrender, the Israeli occupation of Gaza would just get worse. That wouldn't be peace, or justice, for people of Gaza. I certainly don't support what Hamas has done, but Israeli rule will probably be pretty brutal for Palestinians.
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robertoandred ◴[21 Apr 25 16:25 UTC] No.43753726[source]▶
Israel hasn't occupied Gaza for 20 years.
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1. za3faran ◴[21 Apr 25 18:50 UTC] No.43755165[source]▶
They literally control the air, water, electricity, food, internet, everything. They are literally mass starving the Gazans as we speak.
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2. za3faran ◴[22 Apr 25 18:04 UTC] No.43764747[source]▶
israel literally are able to cut off food, water, electricity, internet at their own whim, they're doing it as we speak. They are actively blocking aid and food from going in. Read the news. There are many anti-zionist jews as well speaking up against the atrocities and war crimes israel has been committing for a very long time now.
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3. shadowgovt ◴[22 Apr 25 18:31 UTC] No.43764950{3}[source]▶
I'm not even sure I'd go so far as to call them anti-zionist.

How long do people imagine Israel survives as a state with a brutally-oppressed population under its care?

It's a rational position to be pro-state-of-Israel and want them to find peace (and integration) with the Gazans because the consequences of perpetual animosity and aggression are the single biggest threat to the state's survival.

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4. shadowgovt ◴[22 Apr 25 19:54 UTC] No.43765645{5}[source]▶
Given the history, I can appreciate their rage. The point stands that you don't get a state with long-term stability by just dropping a lid on a pressure-cooker. Solutions that lean in that direction start to look disquietingly like final solutions.
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5. shadowgovt ◴[23 Apr 25 00:04 UTC] No.43767457{7}[source]▶
Timeline-wise, the Palestinians were there long before the Israelis in modern Israel. I don't think forcing them out is a reasonable starting point. At best, that becomes a perpetual shame like the US treatment of native Americans.

Personally, I look to Ireland and England as a potential model. People have been conflating Hamas and Gaza in this thread... At the height of the Troubles, more Irish supported the IRA than Palestinians support Hamas, and I don't think anyone ever suggested the solution was to relocate the Irish.

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6. shadowgovt ◴[23 Apr 25 00:10 UTC] No.43767497{5}[source]▶
> Did the Americans feed the Japanese?

I'm sure you don't seriously intend to bring up American treatment of the Japanese in its territory as a positive example.

As you are not American, I forgive you your apparent lack of knowledge of the concentration camps, or the theft of property that was never returned to innocent Japanese Americans.

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7. shadowgovt ◴[23 Apr 25 00:45 UTC] No.43767641{4}[source]▶
That's not really been the standard the world holds itself to since World War II.

Yes, aggressors in a just war are expected to care for the civilian population in conquered territory. Starvation as a war weapon against civilians is a war crime.

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2019-11/BSG-WP-...

In fact, the only place it's currently legal (though generally frowned upon) is in the context of a civil war, and if this is a civil war we're back to asking the question: how does Israel expect to find peace when 9 million citizens are oppressing 5 million with brutal military violence?

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8. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 00:55 UTC] No.43767686{5}[source]▶
Such organization doesn't exist actually, it's a zionist straw man.
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9. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 00:56 UTC] No.43767692{5}[source]▶
Go watch the many documentaries about Gaza, then tell us it is not brutally oppressed. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians have been treated atrociously for over 75 years now. The West Bank is not much better off either by the way.
10. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 00:58 UTC] No.43767702{4}[source]▶
I personally know such jews actually. We salute anyone standing against oppression of the Palestinians from the brutality they have been facing for over 75 years now.
replies(1): >>43767728 #
11. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 01:07 UTC] No.43767753{7}[source]▶
The Palestinians in Gaza and the entirety of Palestine trace their roots to 3000+ years ago actually.
replies(1): >>43769529 #
12. defrost ◴[23 Apr 25 03:03 UTC] No.43768297{9}[source]▶
The non consentual sterilization of tens of thousands of Native American women by Americans was completely justified and justifiable?

The destruction of language and culture via Indian schools was completely justified and justifiable?

That's an opinion I and many others disagree with.

13. ◴[23 Apr 25 03:59 UTC] No.43768502{6}[source]▶
14. inemesitaffia ◴[23 Apr 25 05:15 UTC] No.43768820{6}[source]▶
Lol straw man. It's a present reality.

Ask the Arabs and Levantine Muslims where all their Jews are. Why Lebanon is Muslim. Why their states are Islamic and why they have issues with religious and cultural states that they aren't a majority of.

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15. inemesitaffia ◴[23 Apr 25 07:28 UTC] No.43769529{8}[source]▶
Arafat was Egyptian
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16. shadowgovt ◴[23 Apr 25 12:48 UTC] No.43771510{6}[source]▶
Gaza isn't a separate country, the Palestinians are still Israelis in terms of international responsibility and national membership, seeing as how Palestine is not a recognized independent nation.

How do we know this? Because Israel isn't under sanction for the activities they are undertaking that would be considered war crimes if done to another nation.

It is a long-standing civil war that a couple generations of national leadership have failed to find a long-term resolution to. The current resolution of trying to ghetto the Palestinian people into controlled territories ("reservations," if you will, a common strategy used by colonizers to "handle" the native population) doesn't seem to be bearing fruit other than intergenerational violence.

17. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 15:44 UTC] No.43773438{9}[source]▶
Wikipedia: Yasser Arafat[a] (4 or 24 August 1929 – 11 November 2004), also popularly known by his kunya Abu Ammar,[b] was a Palestinian political leader
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18. inemesitaffia ◴[23 Apr 25 17:28 UTC] No.43774516{10}[source]▶
Yasser Arafat was Egyptian. He was born there and his tribe is there. He's as Palestinian as every Turk or Houthi.

It's public knowledge.

Also Wikipedia is known for it's progressive stance. Can't trust it for anything that intersects with culture war issues where everything is a conspiracy.

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19. AnimalMuppet ◴[23 Apr 25 17:37 UTC] No.43774617{11}[source]▶
You can probably trust Wikipedia when it says that Yasser Arafat was born in Egypt to Palestinian parents.
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20. ◴[23 Apr 25 18:29 UTC] No.43775200{12}[source]▶
21. za3faran ◴[23 Apr 25 18:33 UTC] No.43775253{11}[source]▶
He was Palestinian. It's public knowledge. Secondly, let's say he's from Mars, does that maean the rest of the millions of Palestinians are also all Martians? LOL
22. shadowgovt ◴[23 Apr 25 19:30 UTC] No.43775807{11}[source]▶
I'm sure I'm misreading you; you didn't intend to say you can't trust Wikipedia because it doesn't indulge conspiracy theories, but I'm having a hard time understanding your meaning in any other form. Can you clarify?
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23. inemesitaffia ◴[25 Apr 25 08:52 UTC] No.43791617{12}[source]▶
Arafat was born in Egypt to Egyptian parents. I knew where he was born since before Wales had the idea.
24. inemesitaffia ◴[25 Apr 25 08:58 UTC] No.43791651{12}[source]▶
Wikipedia overdoes it's claims that things are conspiracy theories. While people publicly promote those things.