Pope Francis has died

RIP.

His speech yesterday (he dictated it I guess) was very very political, not on the usual level, felt like a finally "all out" for me.

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/urbi/do...

> I express my closeness to the sufferings of Christians in Palestine and Israel, and to all the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. The growing climate of anti-Semitism throughout the world is worrisome. Yet at the same time, I think of the people of Gaza, and its Christian community in particular, where the terrible conflict continues to cause death and destruction and to create a dramatic and deplorable humanitarian situation. I appeal to the warring parties: call a ceasefire, release the hostages and come to the aid of a starving people that aspires to a future of peace!

Tangentially related: why do so many people call for a ceasefire, when a ceasefire is generally temporary. It wouldn't resolve any of the underlying reasons for the war. He should be calling for surrender.

Who should surrender, though? At this point in time, if Hamas were to surrender, the Israeli occupation of Gaza would just get worse. That wouldn't be peace, or justice, for people of Gaza. I certainly don't support what Hamas has done, but Israeli rule will probably be pretty brutal for Palestinians.

Israel hasn't occupied Gaza for 20 years.

They literally control the air, water, electricity, food, internet, everything. They are literally mass starving the Gazans as we speak.

israel literally are able to cut off food, water, electricity, internet at their own whim, they're doing it as we speak. They are actively blocking aid and food from going in. Read the news. There are many anti-zionist jews as well speaking up against the atrocities and war crimes israel has been committing for a very long time now.

I'm not even sure I'd go so far as to call them anti-zionist.

How long do people imagine Israel survives as a state with a brutally-oppressed population under its care?

It's a rational position to be pro-state-of-Israel and want them to find peace (and integration) with the Gazans because the consequences of perpetual animosity and aggression are the single biggest threat to the state's survival.

Given the history, I can appreciate their rage. The point stands that you don't get a state with long-term stability by just dropping a lid on a pressure-cooker. Solutions that lean in that direction start to look disquietingly like final solutions.

Timeline-wise, the Palestinians were there long before the Israelis in modern Israel. I don't think forcing them out is a reasonable starting point. At best, that becomes a perpetual shame like the US treatment of native Americans.

Personally, I look to Ireland and England as a potential model. People have been conflating Hamas and Gaza in this thread... At the height of the Troubles, more Irish supported the IRA than Palestinians support Hamas, and I don't think anyone ever suggested the solution was to relocate the Irish.