Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance.

Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real?

If it solves th same problems, why is Brazil considering banning self-custodial USD stablecoins? And why has there been an ongoing discussion about launching mBRL, and stablecoin pegged to the real?

https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-...

Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system.

Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman....

The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.

Only real afaik, although there have been some thoughts to integrating some neighbours to the system. Right afaik it works in shops popular with Brazilian tourists in the Southern Cone through some workarounds.

And quite a lot of Western ones like Vipps. And see this long list: https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-...

> require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned

Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.

>> require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned

> Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.

There same requirements also make the likelihood of these systems scaling beyong one jurisdiction very unlikely. Tourists don't want to set up a payment account for every country they visit. Or other way around, banks don't want to KYC and set up an account for every foreign tourist.

As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well.

> As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue.

China, India, Brazil, Russia, Japan, South Korea, and others are all trying to expand their own transaction networks.

While it's still piecemeal, a Chinese or Indian tourist in Thailand can use UnionPay or UPI to transact without using Visa/Mastercard, a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir, a Brazilian in Argentina can use Pix instead of Visa/MC as well, and a Japanese visitor in Singapore can use JCB instead.

Even the ECB has recently started considering this option (though it might also be an attempt to force the Trump admin to negotiate).

The biggest thing blocking international payment competitors is FATF, which has some regulations biased in favor of Visa/Mastercard.

> Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well

I'm not sure. Most jurisdictions that aren't the US and EU heavily regulate cryptocurrencies, and at best allow state managed or regulated cryptocurrencies, which basically makes the whole point of crypto moot.

This is not a good argument. We can't forbid everything just because it can be used by criminals.

By the same thinking we should forbid cash, too.

We have two ways:

Give up all freedoms, forbid anything and transform the society into a mass surveillance society where everyone spies everyone, where is no anonimity and no privacy.

Or require law enforcement to do a better jobs without people giving up their freedoms.

> As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue.

Until there will be a stable coin we can trust and which can be accepted by most businesses.

> Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real?

There are neighboring wallets (like Belo in Argentina) that support it, and I believe tourism will drive even more integration over time.

> a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir

If you can find a place that actually accepts it! It’s certainly not as ubiquitous as the local Napas247 QR codes.

Yep! And Napas247 was co-developed by Vietnam and South Korea (edit: Only VN - confused Shinhan's support for development work)!

The point is there is a steady decoupling towards non-Visa/MC payment systems outside the US and EU, and it wouldn't be too surprising if a number of these systems begin supporting inter-operability within the next 10 years.

Oh yeah, I think lots of QR code based systems in Asia are actually interoperable now (just not if you’re not a resident in any of these countries — e.g. I do have GCash, but my account works in Philippines only).

That's okay so long as criminals can still use public lotteries for that so that the government gets its cut.

Sorry, I can't find anywhere mention it co-develop with South Korea. Can you give source to this?

A state of mutual trust can be established, similar to driver’s licenses and passports: country A trusts you, they did all the legwork, we certify their endorsement, you’re fine. It won’t necessarily be possible between all pairs, but, SEPA and Interac should be theoretically interoperable; dozens of other friendly-country pairs can be thought of.

Good callout! I'm wrong on that one. I was under the assumption it was co-developed with Shinhan but that was wrong.

>Does it work internationally?

Does crypto? You may have heard of this thing called "tariffs" lately. Even purchases of software licenses are tariffed in Brazil[1]. The average person purchasing goods with crypto is just going to ignore this and several similar laws.

If you say crypto works to transact internationally, keep in mind: so does TF2 hats.

1: https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-fe...

There is a pretty big gray area in there. Literally every society on the planet has some form of "giving up their freedoms" in exchange for some amount of security. I would argue that it's impossible to have a stable society without that. The thing that's important is deciding which rights are worth protecting and which ones are ok to give up in exchange for security (or other reasons, presumably).

And then BRICS comes along connecting all those countries payment systems and voilà the circle is complete.

Indeed, TF2 hats and gift cards appear to do something well that this system doesn't :)

And it's not as if crypto is particularly anonymous. Transaction analysis will identify you unless you work hard at covering your tracks.

Yes. As soon as June, Brazilian pix will support "Automatic Pix". Which means, basically, Pix will support subscriptions. So let's say, you authorize Netflix with pix, and then every month they will charge you with Pix automatically.

I find very likely Netflix or Amazon will be one of the first companies to support this in June now.

This was made initially to replace old school automatic debit for phone/electricity/etc bills, but it will support all services.

In Brazil, installments with credit cards are also super common... Basically when you put a credit card on any website or buy on a store, you can just choose to pay in 12x.

Well, they will add in September Pix Installments as well.

I note that that thing is not "abide by the law"

Intruiging (in a great way). Do you have any recommendations of any Brazilian sources (Portuguese em Ingles) about the Brazilian and MERCOSUR FinTech and Public Tech industry? I'd love to dig even deeper, but my background is more NAM and Indo-Pac driven. I passed on NuBank eons ago and don't want to make the same mistake again.

> Brazil, installments with credit cards are also super common... Basically when you put a credit card on any website or buy on a store, you can just choose to pay in 12x

Yea that kinda makes sense. The market dynamics in Brazil reminds me a lot of India albeit better regulated (thank you OECD reforms), but tbf, there has been a lot of cross-pollination between Brazilian and Indian policymakers - Cambridge MA is that kinda melting pot, and Brazil has a very similar political dynamic.

Maybe you can if the main use of a coin is for ransomware or drug traficking

Not sure if there's an english website about it, but in Portuguese quality content you can find without paywall I would say is NeoFeed https://neofeed.com.br/

Brazil Journal too, but it usually focus more on market as a whole. https://braziljournal.com/

But most of the news are usually covered on Infomoney, Valor Economico, with the together with daily market coverage.

NeoFeed and Brazil Journal focus more on "high-quality", less content.

Thanks my dude! Obv gunna do some due dilligence, but the sources you provided look solid.

Let's grab some cacha or other trashy/bourgeois booze when I'm back in São Paulo! I'm am Arak kinda guy

You can absolutely not use Pix in Argentina. Maybe some street performer will, but most places barely accept cards, let alone pix. Cash is still king there.

> Do you have any recommendations of any Brazilian sources (Portuguese em Ingles) about the Brazilian and MERCOSUR FinTech and Public Tech industry?

the best source I could find is this: https://finsidersbrasil.com.br/

Where? Pretty much every place accepts Mercadopago at least in Buenos Aires and PBA. From big stores to smaller ones to street performers or small shops in the middle of the road.

Vipps works in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland.