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2127 points bakugo | 59 comments | | HN request time: 1.071s | source | bottom
1. TriangleEdge ◴[] No.43163502[source]
This AI race is happening so fast. Seems like it to me anyway. As a software developer/engineer I am worried about my job prospects.. time will tell. I am wondering what will happen to the west coast housing bubbles once software engineers lose their high price tags. I guess the next wave of knowledge workers will move in and take their place?
replies(7): >>43163516 #>>43163825 #>>43164440 #>>43164873 #>>43164965 #>>43168669 #>>43172150 #
2. gchokov ◴[] No.43163551[source]
This is BS and you are not listening and watching carefully.
replies(3): >>43163600 #>>43163624 #>>43163648 #
3. Trasmatta ◴[] No.43163580[source]
> Its not AI

AI is a very broad term with many different definitions.

replies(1): >>43163610 #
4. eschluntz ◴[] No.43163595[source]
Even when I feel this, 90% of any novel thing I'm doing is still old gruntwork, and Claude lets me speed through that and focus all my attention on the interesting 10% (disclaimer: I'm at Anthropic)
replies(2): >>43163837 #>>43164152 #
5. dingnuts ◴[] No.43163600{3}[source]
OK then show me a model that can answer honestly and correctly about whether or not it knows something.
replies(1): >>43164241 #
6. martin-t ◴[] No.43163606[source]
Build on top of stolen code, no less. HN hates to hear it but LLMs are a huge step back for software freedom because as long as they call it "AI" and as long as politicians don't understand it, it allows companies to launder GPL code and reuse it without credit and without giving users their rights.
7. dingnuts ◴[] No.43163610{3}[source]
it does seem disingenuous for something without intelligence to be called intelligence
replies(2): >>43163696 #>>43164154 #
8. croes ◴[] No.43163624{3}[source]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43155825
9. lukaslalinsky ◴[] No.43163648{3}[source]
Even the best LLMs today are just junior devs with a lot of knowledge. They make a lot of the same mistakes junior devs would do. Even the responses, when you point out those mistakes, are the same.

If anything, it's a tool for junior devs to get better and spend more time on the architecture.

Using AI code without fully understanding it (ie operated by a non-programmer) is just recipe for disaster.

replies(2): >>43164264 #>>43164535 #
10. vasco ◴[] No.43163663[source]
How many novel things does a developer do at work as a percentage of their time?
replies(1): >>43164571 #
11. GaggiX ◴[] No.43163690[source]
>There is no intelligence here and Claude 3.7 cannot create anything novel.

I wouldn't be surprised if people would continue to deny the actual intelligence of these models even in a scenario where they were able to solve the Riemann hypothesis.

"Every time we figure out a piece of it, it stops being magical; we say, 'Oh, that's just a computation.'" - cit

12. Trasmatta ◴[] No.43163696{4}[source]
I feel like you're nitpicking. Intelligence is ALSO a broad term with no singular consensus on what it means or what it is.
13. ◴[] No.43163713[source]
14. fallinditch ◴[] No.43163825[source]
My guess is that, yes, the software development job market is being massively disrupted, but there are things you can do to come out on top:

* Learn more of the entire stack, especially the backend, and devops.

* Embrace the increased productivity on offer to ship more products, solo projects, etc

* Be highly selective as far as possible in how you spend your productive time: being uber-effective can mean thinking and planning in longer timescales.

* Set up an awesome personal knowledge management system and agentic assistants

replies(5): >>43164462 #>>43165750 #>>43165871 #>>43167258 #>>43189822 #
15. TriangleEdge ◴[] No.43163837{3}[source]
Do you think the "deep research" feature that some AI companies have will ever apply to software? For example, I had to update Spring in a Java codebase recently. AI was only able to help mildly to figure out why I was seeing some errors, but that's it.
16. sekai ◴[] No.43163848[source]
> Its not AI. It is enhanced autocomplete. There is no intelligence here and Claude 3.7 cannot create anything novel. We as an industry need to get more honest about these things.

Yeah, this sort of "AI" is still nothing more than a glorified “Chinese room” (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Chinese_room).

To illustrate:

https://x.com/yoltartar/status/1861812132209369420

17. codingwagie ◴[] No.43164109[source]
This is pure cope
replies(1): >>43166375 #
18. trgaf ◴[] No.43164152{3}[source]
One can also steal directly from GitHub and strip the license to avoid this grunt work. LLMs automate the stealing.
19. danielbln ◴[] No.43164154{4}[source]
What's your definition of intelligence?
20. medvezhenok ◴[] No.43164241{4}[source]
Show me a human that can answer honestly and correctly about whether they know something.
21. nprateem ◴[] No.43164264{4}[source]
The worst is when you tell it it's made a mistake and it agrees.

"You're right, but I just like wasting your time"

22. throw234234234 ◴[] No.43164440[source]
It has the potential to effect a lot more than just SV/The West Coast - in fact SV may be one of the only areas who have some silver lining with AI development. I think these models have a chance to disrupt employment in the industry globally. Ironically it may be only SWE's and a few other industries (writing, graphic design, etc) that truly change. You can see they and other AI labs are targeting SWEs in particular - just look at the announcement "Claude 3.7 and Code" - very little mention of any other domains on their announcement posts.

For people who aren't in SV for whatever reason and haven't seen the really high pay associated with being there - SWE is just a standard job often stressful with lots of learning required ongoing. The pain/anxiety of being disrupted is even higher then since having high disposable income to invest/save would of been less likely. Software to them would of been a job with comparable pay's to other jobs in the area; often requiring you to be degree qualified as well - anecdotally many I know got into it for the love; not the money.

Who would of thought the first job being automated by AI would be software itself? Not labor, or self driving cars. Other industries either seem to have hit dead ends, or had other barriers (regulation, closed knowledge, etc) that make it harder to do. SWE's have set an example to other industries - don't let AI in or keep it in-house as long as possible. Be closed source in other words. Seems ironic in hindsight.

replies(1): >>43165450 #
23. eterm ◴[] No.43164446[source]
The threat is not autocomplete, it's translation.

"translating" requirements into code is what most developers' jobs are.

So "just" translation is a threat to job security of developers.

24. bilbo0s ◴[] No.43164462[source]
This is really good advice.

Underrated comment.

25. ◴[] No.43164535{4}[source]
26. riku_iki ◴[] No.43164571{3}[source]
that's because stacks/apis/ecosystems are super complicated and require lots of reading/searching to figure out how make things happen. Now this time will be reduced dramatically and devs time will shift on more novel things.
27. viraptor ◴[] No.43164873[source]
It seems to be slowing down actually. Last year was wild until around llama 3. The latest improvements are relatively small. Even the reasoning models are a small improvement over explicit planning with agents that we could already do before - it's just nicely wrapped and slightly tuned for that purpose. Deepseek did some serious efficiency improvements, but not so much user-visible things.

So I'd say that the AI race is starting to plateau a bit recently.

replies(1): >>43165731 #
28. LouisSayers ◴[] No.43164965[source]
I'm not too concerned short to medium term. I feel there are just too many edge cases and nuances that are going to be missed by AI systems.

For example, systems don't always work in the way they're documented to. How is an AI going to differentiate cases where there's a bug in a service vs a bug in its own code? How will an AI even learn that the bug exists in the first place? How will an AI differentiate between someone reporting a bug and a hacker attempting to break into a system?

The world is a complex place and without ACTUAL artificial intelligence we're going to need people to at least guide AI in these tricky situations.

My advice would be to get familiar with using AI and new AI tools and how they fit into our usual workflows.

Others may disagree, but I don't think software engineers (at least ones the good ones) are going anywhere.

29. throw83288 ◴[] No.43165450[source]
What do you even do then as a student? I've asked this dozens of times with zero practical answers at all. Frankly I've become entirely numb to it all.
replies(2): >>43165883 #>>43171746 #
30. j_maffe ◴[] No.43165731[source]
While I agree, you have to remember the dimensionality of the labor-skill space is. The was I see it is that you can imagine the capability of AI as a radius, and the amount of tasks it can cover is a sphere. Linear imporovements in performance causes cubic (or whatever the labor-skill dimensionality is) imporvement in task coverage.
replies(1): >>43169621 #
31. j_maffe ◴[] No.43165750[source]
Do you have any specific tips for the last point? I completely agree with it and have set up a fairly robust Obsidian note taking structure that will benefit greatly from an agentic assistant. Do you use specific tools or workframe for this?
replies(2): >>43168653 #>>43169076 #
32. whynotminot ◴[] No.43165871[source]
> Learn more of the entire stack, especially the backend, and devops.

I actually wonder about this. Is it better to gain some relatively mediocre experience at lots of things? AI seems to be pretty good at lots of things.

Or would it be better to develop deep expertise in a few things? Areas where even smart AI with reasoning still can get tripped up.

Trying to broaden your base of expertise seems like it’s always a good idea, but when AI can slurp the whole internet in a single gulp, maybe it isn’t the best allocation of your limited human training cycles.

replies(2): >>43168340 #>>43178927 #
33. throw234234234 ◴[] No.43165883{3}[source]
Be glad that you are empowered to pivot - I'm making the assumption you are still young being a student. In a disrupted industry you either want to be young (time to change out of it) or old (50+) - can retire with enough savings. The middle age people (say 15-25 years in the industry; your 35-50 yr olds) are most in trouble depending on the domain they are in. For all the "friendly" marketing IMO they are targeting tech jobs in general - for many people if it wasn't for tech/coding/etc they would never need to use an LLM at all. Anthrophic's recent stats as to who uses their products are telling - its mostly code code code.

The real answer is either to pivot to a domain where the computer use/coding skills are secondary (i.e. you need the knowledge but it isn't primary to the role) or move to an industry which isn't very exposed to AI either due to natural protections (e.g. trades) or artifical ones (e.g regulation/oligopolies colluding to prevent knowledge leaking to AI). May not be a popular comment on this platform - I would love to be wrong.

replies(1): >>43165980 #
34. throw83288 ◴[] No.43165980{4}[source]
Not enough resources to get another bachelors, and a masters is probably practically worthless for a pivot. I would have to throw away the past 10 years of my life, start from scratch, with zero ideas for any real skill-developing projects since I'm not interested at all. Probably a completely non-viable candidate in anything I would choose. Maybe only Robotics would work, and that's probably going to be solved quickly because:

You assume nothing LLMs do are actually generalization. Once Field X is eaten the labs will pivot and use the generalization skills developed to blow out Field Y to make the next earnings report. I think at this current 10x/yr capability curve (Read: 2 years -> 100x 4 years -> 10000x) I'll get screwed no matter what is chosen. Especially the ones in proximity to computing, which makes anything in which coding is secondary fruitless. Regulation is a paper wall and oligopolies will want to optimize as much as any firm. Trades are already saturating.

This is why I feel completely numb about this, I seriously think there is nothing I can do now. I just chose wrong because I was interested in the wrong thing.

replies(2): >>43167975 #>>43169650 #
35. ilrwbwrkhv ◴[] No.43166375{3}[source]
AI cannot write a simple dockerfile. I don't know how simple stuff you guys are writing. If ai can do it then it should be an excel sheet and not code.
replies(1): >>43166726 #
36. simonw ◴[] No.43166726{4}[source]
I've been writing Dockerfiles with LLMs for over a year now - all of the top tier LLMs do a great job of those in my experience.
37. ijidak ◴[] No.43167258[source]
I love, especially the last point.

But, what do you use for agentic assistants?

replies(1): >>43168736 #
38. currymj ◴[] No.43167975{5}[source]
I think if you believe LLMs can truly generalize and will be able to replace all labor in entire industries and 10x every year, you pretty much should believe in ASI at which point having a job is the least of your problems.

if you rule out ASI, then that means progress is going to have to slow. consider that programming has been getting more and more automated continually since 1954. so put yourself in a position where what LLMs can do is a complement to what you can do. currently you still need to understand how software works in order to operate one of these things successfully.

replies(1): >>43169481 #
39. aizk ◴[] No.43168340{3}[source]
I was advised to be T shaped, wide reach + one narrow domain you can really nail.
replies(1): >>43171287 #
40. fallinditch ◴[] No.43168653{3}[source]
What works well for me at the moment is to write 'books' - i.e use ai as a writing assistant for large documents. I do this because the act of compiling the info with ai assistance helps me to assimilate the knowledge. I use a combination of Chatgpt, perplexity and Gemini with notebook LM - to merge responses from separate LLMs, provide critical feedback on a response, or a chunk of writing, etc.

This is a really accessible setup and is great for my current needs. Taking it to the next stage with agentic assistants is something I'm only just starting out on. I'm looking at WilmerAI [1] for routing ai workflows and Hoarder [2] to automatically ingest and categorize bookmarks, docs and RSS feed content into a local RAG.

[1] https://github.com/SomeOddCodeGuy/WilmerAI

[2] https://hoarder.app/

41. ttul ◴[] No.43168669[source]
Trade your labour for capitalism. Own the means of production. This translates to: build a startup.
42. fallinditch ◴[] No.43168736{3}[source]
See answer above, it's something I want to get into. I am inspired by this post on Reddit, it's very cool what this guy is doing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1i1kz1c/sharing...

43. jmehman ◴[] No.43169076{3}[source]
You know about the copilot plugin for obsidian?
replies(1): >>43169895 #
44. throw234234234 ◴[] No.43169481{6}[source]
I don't know if I agree with that and as a SWE myself its tempting to think that - it it a form of coping and hope that we will be all in it together.

However rationally I can see where these models are evolving, and it leads me to think the software industry is on its own here at least in the short/medium term. Code and math, and with math you typically need to know enough about the domain know what abstract concept to ask, so that just leaves coding and software development. Even for non technical people they understand the result they want of code.

You can see it in this announcement - it's all about "code, code, code" and how good they are in "code". This is not by accident. The models are becoming more specialised and the techniques used to improve them beyond standard LLM's are not as general to a wide variety of domains.

We engineers think AI automation is about difficulty and intelligence, but that's only partly true. Its also about whether the engineer has the knowledge on what they want to automate, the training data is accessible and vast, and they even know WHAT data is applicable. This combination of both deep domain skills and AI expertise is actually quite rare which is why every AI CEO wants others to go "vertical" - they want others to do that leg work on their platforms. Even if it eventuates it is rare enough that, if they automate, will automate a LOT slower not at the deltas of a new model every few months.

We don't need AGI/ASI to impact the software industry; in my opinion we just need well targeted models that get better at a decent rate. At some point they either hit a wall or surpass people - time will tell BUT they are definitely targeting SWE's at this point.

replies(2): >>43171912 #>>43173813 #
45. manmal ◴[] No.43169621{3}[source]
I‘m not sure that’s true with the latest models. o3-mini is good at analytical tasks and coding, and it really sucks at prose. Sonnet 3.7 is good at thinking but lost some ability in creating diffs.
46. fragmede ◴[] No.43169650{5}[source]
If you're taking a really high level look at the whole problem, you're zooming too far out, and missing the trees themselves. You chose the wrong parents to be born to, but so did most of us. You were interested in what you were interested in. You didn't ask what's the right thing to be interested in, because there's no right answer to that. What you've got is a good head on your shoulders, and the youth to be able to chase dreams. Yeah it's scary. In the 90's outsourcing was going to be the end of lucrative programming jobs in the US. There's always going to be a reason to be scared. Sometimes it's valid, sometimes the sky is falling because aliens are coming, and it turns out to be a weather balloon.

You can definitely succumb to the fear. It sounds like you have. But courage isn't the absence of fear, it's what you do in the face of it. Are you going to let that fear paralyze you into inaction? Just not do anything other than post about being scared to the Internet? Or, having identified that fear, are you gonna wrestle it down to the ground and either choose to retrain into anything else and start from near zero, but it'll be something not programming that you believe isn't right about to be automated away, or dive in deeper, and get a masters in AI and learn all of the math behind LLMs and be an ML expert that trains the AI. That jobs not going away, there's still a ton of techniques to be discovered/invented and all of the niches to be discovered. Fine-tuning an existing LLM to be better at some niche is gonna be hot for a while.

You're lucky, you're in a position to be able to go for a masters, even if you don't choose that route. Others with a similar doomer mindset have it worse, being too old and not in a position to them consider doing a masters.

Face the fear and look into the future with eyes wide open. Decide to go into chicken farming or nursing or firefighter or aircraft mechanic or mortician or locksmith or beekeeping or actuary.

47. j_maffe ◴[] No.43169895{4}[source]
Yes I've started using it but it feels significantly underdevoloped compared to GH Copilot or Cursor. I've considered opening the vault in VSC actually.
replies(1): >>43187512 #
48. whynotminot ◴[] No.43171287{4}[source]
I’ve never heard it to be called T shaped before, but I like it!
49. weatherlite ◴[] No.43171746{3}[source]
I'm sure lots of potential students / bootcampers are now not going into programming (or if they are, the smart ones try to go into niches like A.I and skip web/backend/android altogether). This will work against the numbers of jobs being reduced by A.I. It will take a few years though to play out , but at some point we will see smaller amounts of people trying to get into the field and applying for jobs, certainly for junior positions. We've already had ~ 2 bad years, a couple more like this will really dry out the numbers of newcomers. Less people coming in (than otherwise would have) means for every person who retires / leaves the industry there are less people to take his place. This situation is quite complex with lots of parameters that work in different directions so it's very early to try to get some kind of read on where this is going.

As a new career I'd probably not choose SWE now. But if you've done 10 years already I'd ride it out, there is a good chance most of us will remain employed for many years to come.

replies(1): >>43175399 #
50. throw83288 ◴[] No.43171912{7}[source]
I think what's missing is that the amount of training data to effectively RL usually decreases over time. AlphaGo needed some initial data on good games of Go to then recursively improve via RL. Fast forward a few years, and AlphaZero doesn't need any data to recursively improve.

This is what I mean by generalization skills. You need trillions of lines of code to RL a model into a good SWE right now, but as the models grow more capable you will probably need less and less. Eventually we may hit the point where a large corporations internal data in any department is enough to RL into competence, and then it frankly doesn't matter for any field once individual conglomerates can start the flywheel.

This isn't an absurdity. Man can "RL" itself into competence in a single semester of material, a laughably small amount of training data compared to an LLM.

51. frabcus ◴[] No.43172150[source]
I think if models improve (but we don't get a full singularity) then jobs will increase.

e.g. if software is 5x less cost to make, demand will go up more than 5x as supply is highly limited now. Lots of companies want better software but it costs too much.

That will create more jobs.

They'll be more product management and human interaction and edge case testing and less typing. Although I think there'll be a bunch of very technical jobs to debug things when the models fail.

So my advice is learn skills that help make software useful to people and businesses - from user research to product management. As well as engineering.

replies(1): >>43176636 #
52. currymj ◴[] No.43173813{7}[source]
i actually don’t think nontechnical people understand the result they want of code.

have you ever seen those experiments where they asked people to draw a picture of a bicycle, from memory? people’s pictures made no mechanical sense. often people’s understanding of software is like that — even more so because it’s abstract and many parts are invisible.

learning to clearly describe what software should do is a very artificial skill that at a certain point, shades into part of software engineering.

replies(1): >>43178718 #
53. throw83288 ◴[] No.43175399{4}[source]
When I say 10 years I say that I've probably wanted to work in this field since maybe 10. Computing is my autistic hyperfixation. This is why I'm so frustrated.
replies(1): >>43177383 #
54. aucisson_masque ◴[] No.43176636[source]
the thing is that cost won't go down by 5x but much more.

once the ai gets smart enough that it only requires an intern to make the prompt and solve the few mistakes, development cost will be worth nothing.

there is only so much demand for software development.

55. anticensor ◴[] No.43177383{5}[source]
If it is your autistic hyperfixation, then you can do it for fun as well. Not necessarily as a job.
56. throw234234234 ◴[] No.43178718{8}[source]
Think this is more true for more niche domains; but probably not for things like web/app development where the user can verify the output themselves. Its one of the reasons I'm more bearish on frontend/apps - because that's where the value is to most people and they understand it. That's the key and why it will disrupt code more than math - a non-math person doesn't actually know/want the input or output of advanced math (don't know what they don't know problem) so it remains more of a tool in that domain.

Those people with cross domain knowledge in an industry will continue to have value for some time able to contribute to domain discussions and execute better with the tech. As a result I've always thought the "engineering" part of software was more valuable than the CS/Leetcode part of the industry. As a lecturer many decades ago told me in a SE course - "you will know more about their business, in greater detail by the time you are finished, then they even do".

57. ◴[] No.43178927{3}[source]
58. jmehman ◴[] No.43187512{5}[source]
Yeah, I know what you mean, the RAG retrieval is a bit hit and miss for me. It's better if you tag in the notes you want to refer to. But I doubt it has a team behind it like Cursor. Depending on how many notes you have, given it's markdown you could just upload them to a Project in Claude.
59. shinycode ◴[] No.43189822[source]
We have thousand of old systems to maintain. Not sure everything could be rewritten or maintained with only LLM. If an LLM builds a whole system on its own and is able to maintain and fix it then it’s not just us software developper who will suffer, it means nothing to sale or market, people will just ask an LLM to do something. No sure this is possible. ChatGPT gave me a list of commands for my ec2 instance and one of them when executed made me loose access to ssh. It didn’t warn me. So « blindly » following an LLM lead on a cascade of instructions on a massive scale and on a long period could also lead to massive bugs or corruption of datas. Who did not ask an LLM for some code, that contained mistakes and we had to point the mistakes to it. I doubt system will stay robust with full autonomy without any human supervision. But it’s a great tool to iterate and throw away code after testing ideas