Most active commenters
  • toenail(4)
  • georgeecollins(3)
  • ptero(3)
  • olalonde(3)
  • llamaimperative(3)

←back to thread

927 points smallerfish | 30 comments | | HN request time: 0.415s | source | bottom
Show context
ptero ◴[] No.42925410[source]
That's heavy editorializing:

El Salvador keeps buying the Bitcoin for its strategic reserve. Businesses and citizens can keep using it.

But for getting an IMF loan, IMF (which, to put it mildly, doesn't like Bitcoin) required the end to Bitcoin legal tender status.

Now the businesses are free to accept it or not instead of being required to accept it. That's all. The government plans to keep buying and using it.

replies(5): >>42925665 #>>42925719 #>>42925759 #>>42925790 #>>42926067 #
1. georgeecollins ◴[] No.42926067[source]
There seems to be two concepts that are getting conflated. One concept is that BTC is a good investment. Historically that is undeniable.

The other concept is that it is a good medium of exchange. I think that is not so true because 1) its neither cheap nor easy to buy a lot of things with it 2) a thing that goes up in value is not a good medium of exchange because people don't want to spend it, they want to hoard it.

If you accept that BTC is a reasonable investment, but not a great medium of exchange then what is happening makes sense.

I am not saying that a decentralized token couldn't be a good medium of exchange -- honestly I don't know. But so far BTC is not that.

replies(6): >>42926186 #>>42926761 #>>42926885 #>>42927500 #>>42928146 #>>42937647 #
2. bawolff ◴[] No.42926186[source]
> One concept is that BTC is a good investment. Historically that is undeniable.

I'll deny it.

Bitcoin has seen large gains, that is undeniable. However, that is not the same thing as being a good investment.

replies(1): >>42931006 #
3. LudwigNagasena ◴[] No.42926761[source]
> a thing that goes up in value is not a good medium of exchange because people don't want to spend it, they want to hoard it.

So... traditional money is good because it forces poor people to spend it? Rich people have no problem converting cash into assets that go up in value and holding onto them converting back at need. It's only poor people that have to hold comparatively high percentage of their assets in something that loses value.

replies(2): >>42931798 #>>42934271 #
4. ptero ◴[] No.42926885[source]
Let me add a third concept which, to me, is a much more useful feature (as I wrote in a sister thread): a store of value for people whose governments like to control the money flow, dilute savings in the single available local fiat currency and confiscate savings calling it a money reform. Which, sadly, is a large part of the world.

Value oscillating against some golden reference by a factor of 4? Many will likely take that if it means avoiding their own government shenanigans. I saw a currency reform which turned savings to zero. My parents lived through two such devaluations. As did my grandparents. Buying dollars or another hard currency, if found, meant prison. In this setup a permissionless, anonymous store of value, warts and all, is very valuable.

replies(1): >>42940145 #
5. olalonde ◴[] No.42927500[source]
You're also conflating two distinct concepts: "Bitcoin the currency" and "Bitcoin the payment network."

The currency itself can be used independently of its base-layer network, which is intentionally slow and costly (functioning primarily as a settlement layer). This separation is enabled by off-chain or layer 2 systems, such as the Lightning Network or custodial platforms. These solutions retain Bitcoin's monetary benefits - like a predictable money supply, off/on ramping through the base layer - while enabling fast, cheap transactions. The tradeoff is that you must trust an intermediary, but this mirrors the same compromise inherent to digital USD payment systems (Venmo, credit cards, PayPal, etc.).

In fact, USD lacks a true "base layer" altogether. The closest equivalent would be the Federal Reserve Bank’s ledger, but accounts there are restricted to large financial institutions, not individuals.

replies(2): >>42928070 #>>42934209 #
6. next_xibalba ◴[] No.42928070[source]
That’s a lot of words for “it cannot be used in everyday financial transactions”.
replies(2): >>42928136 #>>42928993 #
7. olalonde ◴[] No.42928136{3}[source]
It's not convenient to use "Bitcoin the payment network" for everyday financial transactions, just as it's not convenient to use the "USD the payment network" (e.g. the Federal Reserve ledger) for everyday financial transactions (in fact, it's impossible).

However, “Bitcoin the currency” and “USD the currency” work perfectly for daily use if you route them through trusted intermediaries (Strike, Cash App, PayPal, etc.). These third parties abstract away the base layer and offer fast, cheap, and reversible transactions.

replies(1): >>42929548 #
8. agumonkey ◴[] No.42928146[source]
Makes me wonder why the BTC original design tilted toward deflationary, since allegedly, 'satoshi' was trying to create currency, not speculation. Was it a two phase idea ? Attract people for 80 years as investment then when it's stable, use them as stupid coins ?
replies(2): >>42929014 #>>42929639 #
9. toenail ◴[] No.42928993{3}[source]
What do you mean, I use bitcoin and the lightning network all the time for small payments.
replies(1): >>42930327 #
10. toenail ◴[] No.42929014[source]
Deflation is the natural state of the economy because progress makes everything cheaper. We only have an inflationary system because central banks print money. Putting a central bank into code and micro-managing the money supply was not possible, so bitcoin is more like a commodity, like gold for example. Gold has worked just fine as a money for thousands of years.
11. jcgl ◴[] No.42929548{4}[source]
But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger.

Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite.

replies(1): >>42931238 #
12. int_19h ◴[] No.42929639[source]
A lot of people on libertarian right genuinely believe that deflationary money is desirable. BTC is often referred to as "digital gold" for a reason.
replies(1): >>42930914 #
13. yieldcrv ◴[] No.42930327{4}[source]
I wish there was usdc over lightning

if there is, it’s poorly advertised

does seem like a huge swing and a miss for lightning to only have unstable value units of account going over it

the market clearly wants something else, and has that, on other networks at large volumes

replies(1): >>42930598 #
14. toenail ◴[] No.42930598{5}[source]
https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/tap...
replies(1): >>42931623 #
15. agumonkey ◴[] No.42930914{3}[source]
can you explain their reasoning ? just curious (i'm a newb)
replies(2): >>42931827 #>>42933757 #
16. ◴[] No.42931006[source]
17. olalonde ◴[] No.42931238{5}[source]
> But Bitcoin qua payment network is/was a major part of the Bitcoin value proposition—what a Bitcoin _is_ is an entry in a distributed ledger.

I know that's what hardcore Bitcoiners have typically pushed for, but I personally disagree. To me, the most interesting thing about Bitcoin is its predictable and unmanipulatable money supply. The payment network is nice though because it can let you easily and permissionlessly take your Bitcoin wherever you want. Fees are actually not that exorbitant, certainly cheaper than SWIFT transfers. The current average transaction fee is around 1 USD and the first confirmation, which is sufficient for most kind of transactions, takes 10 minutes on average.

> Whereas USD is ultimately bearer tokens. Yes, those tokens can be optimized away as entries on a balance sheet when held by a large entity. But USD is a token system, not a payment network. Bitcoin is the opposite.

USD cash is (paper bills and coins), not digital USD. Bitcoin is a digital bearer token system. As a side note, it wouldn't be very hard to replicate a cash system for Bitcoin, if there was an entity responsible for emitting and redeeming cash for digital Bitcoin (a bit like the US Mint but for Bitcoin).

18. yieldcrv ◴[] No.42931623{6}[source]
thanks! yes I mean to check on bitcoin after major network upgrades like Taproot. okay that article was last updated 10 months, how is that panning out with standardized protocols and wallet integration and issuance?

I’m curious where the communities about this are, or are nowadays

replies(1): >>42934191 #
19. llamaimperative ◴[] No.42931798[source]
Yes it is good to have currency that is distinct from an investment asset. It allows you to do currency things with one, and investment things with the other.
20. llamaimperative ◴[] No.42931827{4}[source]
Sure: if I buy today, I’ll be richer tomorrow.

Ergo, the exact reason it’s a horrible currency for the system.

It’s really just the infamous libertarian inability to consider the needs of the system as separate but still important and sometimes in tension with the desires of the individual.

It’s just a particularly goofy one because a deflationary currency very obviously cannot support an economy.

replies(2): >>42940292 #>>42985542 #
21. ptero ◴[] No.42933757{4}[source]
We need to be clear about the features of money we are talking about (and there are many):

For money to work as a convenient way for people or companies to settle transactions, long-term inflation or deflation does not matter. If A wants cement and has mangoes, B wants pants and has mangoes and C wants mangoes and can do tooth fillings they just need something universally accepted to convert what they have into. And, a bit later, buy what they want. Most money satisfy this, but usually people want more features.

For money to also be a store of value it should maintain its purchasing power. This allows an individual to, say, pay for an education of a child when the child grows up: I can save in today's money and be fairly confident that when the time comes to pay it will cover the (future) cost. This feature is what people tend to refer to as "digital gold" as gold generally maintains its purchasing power over very long times.

For money to enable governments to stimulate society in different ways, money should be deflationary. Easy long term store of value makes people less responsive to short-term government stimuli. Without deflationary money a government cannot print extra money when it overspends or if not enough players want to lend to that government.

The last two tend to cause eternal strife between individualists (who want small government that does not do things people did not explicitly ask for) and progressivists (who want to push the society along the path they see as the best one).

There are more features of money (highly recommend reading "Broken Money" by Lyn Alden)

22. toenail ◴[] No.42934191{7}[source]
I personally have no need for "stable" assets, so I don't know more than that they exist.
replies(1): >>42948064 #
23. georgeecollins ◴[] No.42934209[source]
That's a good point. The payment layer can be different then the ones I have and encountered, and it could evolve. Going forward I will keep that in mind because I think in the back of my head I just assume BTC is a pain to use and that may not always be the case.
24. georgeecollins ◴[] No.42934271[source]
Yes, exactly. It forces the poor (and the rich) to spend it.

When you take out a mortgage on a house its partly because someone took cash they received and deposited it in the bank. If they kept the cash the bank would not have reserves to loan.

replies(1): >>42945941 #
25. KetoManx64 ◴[] No.42940145[source]
Beautifully explained. This applies to just about every single country in the world. There are no countries in the modern world that operate on the gold standard, which means they all print just about as much money as they want and deflate the savings of their citizens.
26. KetoManx64 ◴[] No.42940292{5}[source]
You're right, It is a horrible currency for the system. How would we prop up the military industrial complex and wars with foreign third world countries if we could no longer print money out of thin air? Just dreadful to think about.
replies(1): >>42940877 #
27. llamaimperative ◴[] No.42940877{6}[source]
Lol
28. LudwigNagasena ◴[] No.42945941{3}[source]
You don't even need to do anything to deposit money in the bank anymore. Most people automatically receive their salary in the form of direct bank deposits. And if the value of your money grows, why would you want to do anything with it? You would just let it sit there in the bank.
29. npoc ◴[] No.42948064{8}[source]
Same here. I'd rather hold and use an asset that unstably increases in value greatly over time, than one which continuously goes down in value to 0 (all fiat currencies go to zero eventually)
30. intalentive ◴[] No.42985542{5}[source]
The US economy grew rapidly in the 19th century through long periods of deflation, particularly 1870-1896.