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349 points pseudolus | 101 comments | | HN request time: 1.294s | source | bottom
1. oortoo ◴[] No.42474210[source]
Another aspect here I think is the generalized fear and anxiety present in young people. Having spoken to some family members in the 15-18 age bracket, the message they seem to be receiving is that they are without a future... they won't be buying homes, they won't be getting high paying jobs, and that the system is not going to work in their favor. I think people of this age are uniquely feeling mortal and vulnerable in a way teens typically have not, causing them to be more hesitant to risk losing their mind which they may need to protect themselves down the road. But they also are modern teenagers, not only low in willpower but also coddled by their smartphones, which is why technology addiction is the go to "safer" alternative to habitual drug use.

Also, you typically need to be unsupervised with friends to get into drugs, something teenagers no longer have access to compared to 10-15 years ago. If we look at the social decline due to the pandemic, what made experts think these kids would bounce back? They are forever changed, and will forever be less social than other generations because they missed out on formative experiences.

replies(16): >>42474272 #>>42474450 #>>42474470 #>>42474483 #>>42474512 #>>42474523 #>>42475236 #>>42476592 #>>42476722 #>>42477427 #>>42477607 #>>42477613 #>>42478117 #>>42480226 #>>42481153 #>>42481583 #
2. yieldcrv ◴[] No.42474272[source]
> uniquely feeling mortal and vulnerable in a way teens typically have not, causing them to be more hesitant to risk losing their mind which they may need to protect themselves down the road

its just as easy to reach the exact opposite conclusion when everything is so hopeless and nihilistic. you are extrapolating way too much here.

less unsupervised time, location tracking from parents, unregulated dopamine from chatgroups and algorithms in public social media, and the risk of fentany and other poisons in drugs, are much better contributors to extrapolate from

3. crtified ◴[] No.42474450[source]
I imagine that, for the young people of the world, the Covid years really ripped away the illusion that the adults of the world are in competent control. To a degree that modern generations (from otherwise relatively stable, wealthy countries) have never experienced. While there are other major factors clearly contributing to the generational angst, I think this was the catalyst.

I wonder how the economics stack up, because intoxicants aren't free. If the researchers are saying there's X less drug use, then presumably that either implies (a) teenagers are now spending X more on other areas instead (and what are they?), or (b) teenagers now have X less money.

replies(2): >>42476589 #>>42477459 #
4. fawley ◴[] No.42474470[source]
First-time home owners have increased in age[0], the middle class is shrinking[1], education costs have vastly outpaced inflation[2] as have medical costs[3].

Perhaps the generalized fear is not so much about "coddling", but concrete realities. I do not envy them.

[0] https://www.axios.com/2023/11/20/american-housing-market-old... [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-a... [2] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-co... [3] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/how-does-medical-i...

replies(5): >>42475769 #>>42477385 #>>42477588 #>>42479977 #>>42481033 #
5. plagiarist ◴[] No.42474483[source]
Your last point was my knee-jerk reaction, "where are they going to do drugs? There are fewer and fewer places available to spend time without paying a fee." I'd like to know if that's true or just a mistaken impression on my part.
6. jajko ◴[] No.42474512[source]
> they won't be buying homes, they won't be getting high paying jobs, and that the system is not going to work in their favor

I dont have a clue what your upbringing looked like, but even up to around age of 25, I never ever expected nor was told to expect any of that. The success despite all that is much sweeter.

Maybe thats some US thing, being raised in eastern Europe you were born to shit, you were considered insignificant shit and that was about it. Thats what being occupied for 4 decades by russians causes to society, on top of other bad stuff they are so natural with.

Maybe stop telling kids how they are all special and great and all will be astronauts and let them figure it all out by themselves? Teenagers being frustrated that they wont be owning some posh expensive house, thats pretty fucked up upbringing and life goals to be polite, thats not success in life in any meaningful way.

I recommend checking biggest regrets of dying people, focus on careers and money hoarding are consistently at the top.

replies(2): >>42476719 #>>42477611 #
7. legitster ◴[] No.42474523[source]
I have had the opposite observation. Millenials and older Gen Z have extremely pessimistic takes on the future. Our childhoods were some of the most materially comfortable in human history, and everything in comparison is downhill from there.

But high schoolers I know today seem more even keeled about things. They are graduating into a world where fast food jobs start at $17, no one needs to go to college if they don't want to, and they are accustomed to a world where everything is temporary and digital.

I think the strongest evidence of this is the sharp decline in military recruitment.

replies(2): >>42476596 #>>42478004 #
8. LorenzoGood ◴[] No.42475236[source]
As a person in that age bracket, I don't feel like my peers and I are lacking in opportunities to participate in drug & alcohol use.

As to why I choose to abstain, I honestly am just not interested in drinking or doing drugs. I don't see any benefit to it socially, since I have more fun with my friends doing things while they are sober, and I don't want to be one of those adults that can't socialize without it. Also, the consequences for getting caught are high.

replies(2): >>42476499 #>>42477620 #
9. mmooss ◴[] No.42475769[source]
Also the insane political risks and social instability, climate change, heightened risks of war and econmomic calamity, housing cost increase.
replies(1): >>42476494 #
10. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42476494{3}[source]
All I want in life is a good union for software. Role finished this week, who needs me next week? Off I go.
replies(2): >>42476787 #>>42476788 #
11. sundvor ◴[] No.42476499[source]
I'm very pleased to see this sentiment, as a father of a 14 year old boy. 4 years ago I decided to quit alcohol altogether (from a moderate by Australian standards consumption), and I hope to be a positive influence on him through his formative years through open and honest conversations about the topic.

(He has no desire to start drinking etc early or at all at this point.)

Long term health impacts are high, as someone in my 50s I'm certainly doing better for my choice. And yes, not making stupid decisions under influence also cannot be underestimated.

12. HPsquared ◴[] No.42476589[source]
See also: anyone who lived through the decline and fall of the USSR.
replies(2): >>42476801 #>>42482127 #
13. jolmg ◴[] No.42476592[source]
> you typically need to be unsupervised with friends to get into drugs, something teenagers no longer have access to compared to 10-15 years ago.

They don't? I'm pretty sure I saw unsupervised teens hanging out at a mall even just a few days ago.

replies(2): >>42476778 #>>42476810 #
14. HPsquared ◴[] No.42476596[source]
Millennials had high hopes and were disappointed; Gen Z didn't have high hopes.
replies(1): >>42477701 #
15. yks ◴[] No.42476719[source]
It didn't even cross my mind until the very late teens that it might be possible for me to own a flat one day, the sums involved sounded not much different than a "gazillion dollars", but that particular future outlook definitely had zero effect on my behavior.
16. 2OEH8eoCRo0 ◴[] No.42476722[source]
I suggest you read up on or watch a documentary on the 60s. We are fucking pampered today.
17. mr_toad ◴[] No.42476778[source]
Gen X’s will probably remember being unsupervised from about the age they learned to ride a bike. I think we were the last “get home before dark” generation.
replies(1): >>42480520 #
18. DiggyJohnson ◴[] No.42476787{4}[source]
How would a union help you move between roles? Or are you saying the opposite.
replies(2): >>42477552 #>>42477772 #
19. mmooss ◴[] No.42476788{4}[source]
The political instability, social instability, climate change, wars, and more will affect you whether or not you deny them.
replies(1): >>42478185 #
20. DiggyJohnson ◴[] No.42476801{3}[source]
Presumably you’re referring to disillusioning a generation, right? I wonder if the masses had smartphones in 1992 if they would have withdrew to the internet rather than vodka. Genuine question - yours is an interesting connection because the circumstances of disillusionment are so different.
replies(1): >>42476875 #
21. DiggyJohnson ◴[] No.42476810[source]
Not to sound snarky, but please consider interpreting comments like these as making a statement about rate rather than an absolute binary.
replies(1): >>42476982 #
22. makeitdouble ◴[] No.42476875{4}[source]
Online services have displaced at least:

  - the TV
  - the radio
  - board games
  - card games
  - video games
  - theaters
  - phones and faxes
  - the mail
Perhaps the above where the equivalent of vodka to some of you, but I wouldn't look at someone with their smartphone and think "wow, they're getting wasted !"
replies(1): >>42477409 #
23. jolmg ◴[] No.42476982{3}[source]
Right back at you. I was also commenting on rate rather than saying that I saw one or 2 in the last 10-15 years.

Not all locations are the same though, so maybe there has been a noticeable decrease where you're at. Personally, I think I've felt an increase if anything.

replies(1): >>42478737 #
24. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42477385[source]
More of gen z are home owners than previous generations at that age[0], real wages are increasing for the lower and middle class for the first time since 1970[1]. More people are leaving the workforce than anytime in history, creating high paying trade job openings at an unprecedented rate[2]. Health care costs are growing slower now than any prior decade[3].

Every generation has challenges and benefits. Framing the narrative can happen in any direction and the variance in group is bigger than the variance between.

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/09/05/how-gen-z-outpaces-past-...

[1] https://www.americanprogress.org/article/americans-wages-are...

[2] https://www.protectedincome.org/news/labor-day-peak-65-trade...

[3] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spe...

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25. DiggyJohnson ◴[] No.42477409{5}[source]
It replaced those things but that list doesn’t include the major time sinks, besides TV: social media, porn, doomscrolling. We already made fun of TV zombies, and at the worst it absolutely can remind me of a drunk or unstable person.
replies(1): >>42477636 #
26. lotsofpulp ◴[] No.42477420{3}[source]
[0] needs to breakout what proportion of the homeowners received help from parents, either via free rent or cash.
replies(1): >>42477516 #
27. NotYourLawyer ◴[] No.42477427[source]
You’d think doomerism would lead to MORE drug use.
replies(1): >>42477447 #
28. john_minsk ◴[] No.42477447[source]
Bad times create strong people.
replies(1): >>42478137 #
29. smogcutter ◴[] No.42477459[source]
Agreed that Covid was disillusioning for young people, but uniquely so? The 2008 financial crisis, 9/11, and the GWoT would all like a word.

The only generation I can think of without a similar formative crisis (in the US at least) is Gen X. Does the death of Kurt Cobain count?

replies(2): >>42478151 #>>42481920 #
30. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42477516{4}[source]
[0] in the parent comment needs to note most of the increase comes from older people living and staying in their houses longer rather than dying, moving to facilities or in with family.
31. Uehreka ◴[] No.42477521{3}[source]
> More of gen z are home owners than previous generations at that age[0]

If you’re going to make a claim this bold and this counter to the prevailing narrative, you’re gonna need to cite a better source than an outbrain-riddled webpage that tells me to “watch our video to find the lede we buried”. I’m not saying this isn’t true, but extraordinary claims require good sourcing and explanation.

replies(2): >>42477575 #>>42478033 #
32. toast0 ◴[] No.42477552{5}[source]
Most professional sports players are unionized and they move around all the time. :P

I hope we get a union with a draft and such.

replies(1): >>42477815 #
33. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42477575{4}[source]
Here is the underlying dataset https://www.ipums.org/projects/ipums-cps/d030.V11.0

Redfin did the analysis quoted https://www.redfin.com/news/homeownership-rate-by-generation...

replies(1): >>42478649 #
34. notyourwork ◴[] No.42477588[source]
Society hasn’t setup future society to be better. It’s a grab and go everywhere you look and it’s tiring. This is coming from a millennial with a good tech job. I cannot imagine how younger generations feel.
replies(2): >>42479429 #>>42480004 #
35. noobermin ◴[] No.42477607[source]
Today on HN, Jonathan Haidt afficionados lament the decline of use of addictive, life ruining, hard drugs. Something about "formative experiences." I think it's a good thing kids don't do hard drugs today, information addiction is a thing may be but going back to hard drugs isn't a good thing.
36. acuozzo ◴[] No.42477611[source]
> Teenagers being frustrated that they wont be owning some posh expensive house

Posh expensive house? Nowhere was that mentioned.

The post-WWII 20th century American social contract was: "You will have the ability to get married, live in a modest home of your own, own a car, raise 2-3 young children, and go on a modest annual vacation even if you work in a factory".

replies(2): >>42478236 #>>42480074 #
37. fy20 ◴[] No.42477613[source]
> the message they seem to be receiving is that they are without a future...

At least when I was that age, it was usually the low income people who's greatest achievement in life would be avoiding prison, who usually turned towards smoking, alcohol, drugs and sex. See "Common People" and similar 80s/90s Britpop songs.

What changed?

I grew up in a lower middle class family, and for me the feeling that I could end up like that - as many people I went to school with did - was what pushed me to achieve. My parents could only just afford their bills, so I didn't get any handouts from them. Of course I don't have a Lambo, so maybe I'm considered a failure by Gen Z? Has the boundary of what is considered "successful" shifted?

38. captnObvious ◴[] No.42477620[source]
This is what I’m thinking. All of the kids I know from 16-22 are the most level headed group of young adults I’ve known. It is hilarious to me that this group of brilliant technologists leans so heavily towards seeing the absolute worst in every data point.

Could it be that, kids are doing less drugs because they’re more informed, less bored, and less reckless than previous generations?

We all aspire that our kids will do better than we have. We did our best to instill a sense of confidence and worth in them.

What if it is finally starting to just, f’ing work?

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39. makeitdouble ◴[] No.42477636{6}[source]
I understand how much people are emotionally reactive to these part of the net, and the cultural hatred some can have for "unproductive" time (does it match what you call "time sinks"?)

I still don't think they stand on the same foot as vodka.

replies(1): >>42481929 #
40. corimaith ◴[] No.42477701{3}[source]
Exactly. In 2014 I really thought we'd have flying cars, exploring space and world peace by 2024. Instead everything looks the same, regressed even in some areas and all-around alot more cynical
41. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42477772{5}[source]
In the sense of how certain trade unions function as a hiring hall. Like a centralized job assignment. We already have a version of it except it's a million splintered hiring/recruitment agencies that may or may not be good. Lot's of time wasted.

Probably the wrong place to be barking up this tree though.

42. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42477815{6}[source]
This would rule. I would watch the FAANG draft.
replies(1): >>42481711 #
43. bitwalker ◴[] No.42478004[source]
You might not need to go to college, but you're going into significant debt if you do, so now one has to decide which disadvantage they want to start their career with: no degree, or crippling debt.

A fast food job might be $17/hr, but the cost of gas is >2x what it was when that same job paid $8/hr, not to mention other basic costs like groceries, rent, and buckle up if you have to go to the doctor. Pay has simply not kept up with the cost of living for most Americans.

Why would anyone be happy that everything is ephemeral? That implies a lack of stability, more anxiety about the future, less confidence that you can weather bad times.

Humans are tactile creatures, everything being digital leads to a counter-intuitive sense of isolation - more connected, but less personal. There are positives too, but as an older Millennial, it has been interesting to be along for the ride as the potential of the internet and social media went from a superpower, to kryptonite. Who knows where things will be in 5-10 years, but it's hard not to see how some of our greatest tools are being turned against us in the search for more profit.

Millennials are, if anything, brutally realistic - a trait required to navigate the last 16 years. We were forced to watch as the last bit of life in the idea of a strong middle class was snuffed out, and had to enter the workforce right as the GFC hit. Our parents were the last generation where one could reasonably expect to live a life that truly lived up to the ideal of the American Dream - that one could get educated, get a job, buy a decent house and raise a family, without it being especially noteworthy to do so. For many Millennials, if not every generation following, it is essentially nothing more than a dream at this point. Corporate greed, and a government fully captured by it, has all but killed the middle class, and I fully expect that the advent of AI - rather than being a boon for the middle class - will drive a nail in its coffin. Those with the most to gain are already on top, and I've already heard way more people here talk about what they'll be able to do without needing to hire anyone, than I have about how the people left jobless will benefit. It is readily apparent that nobody with any power is going to do anything about it before a significant amount of suffering is felt - maybe not even then. All you have to do is listen to how people talk about it, as if everyone will magically figure out something else to do when every sector starts losing jobs simultaneously. Our society has a greater chance of eating itself alive first.

I consider myself lucky amongst most Millennials - I entered the workforce before the GFC, then joined the military shortly after it (not due to the GFC, but the timing worked out). I was able to get far enough along in my career in those first years though that I never had to struggle with finding a job like many did. I was able to get a house in my 30s thanks to the GI bill. Very few of those I grew up with are in the same boat, many are living much the same as they were 15 years ago - unable to save enough to buy a house, facing reduced job prospects in the future. What reason do they have to be anything _but_ pessimistic?

For me personally, I think we've simply lost the battle against greed, and there is a tipping point after which reigning it back in is impossible without burning it all down. That's something nobody should want, least of all the rich, but it's played out many times in history, and we keep falling into the same trap, just different ways. I think this time it probably was Citizens United where we lost our grip, that decision made it inevitable that corporate interests would be the driving force of government, not the needs of its people. Who can say for sure what will happen, but we're all along for the ride regardless.

replies(1): >>42480474 #
44. 9rx ◴[] No.42478033{4}[source]
> If you’re going to make a claim this bold and this counter to the prevailing narrative

What do you see as the prevailing narrative? The one I see is homeownership itself, which suggests that homeownership has been seen as being hotly desirable. I strongly suspect we wouldn't have a homeownership narrative to speak of if ownership was unwanted. When something becomes unusually desirable like homeownership has, it is not unexpected to see an uptick in participation around it; in this case owning a home. Much of the urban age has been marked with the majority of the population being renters. Everyone wanting to own a home with such furor is historically unusual.

I expect homeownership has become so desirable as it has become seen as a way to build wealth. While, historically, housing only kept pace with inflation at best, real home values have risen by unfathomable amounts in the last decade or two. Which, again, attracts people willing to risk it all for a chance at some of that wealth opportunity. It would be unusual if said generational group had comparatively lower ownership rates given the "FOMO" aspect. People run away when prices are falling, not when they are rising.

Given the market we've watched, the extraordinary claim would be that Gen-Z has lower ownership rates compared to previous generations at the same age.

replies(2): >>42478527 #>>42479199 #
45. anal_reactor ◴[] No.42478117[source]
> Also, you typically need to be unsupervised with friends

There's a bigger cultural shift going on where people just don't like hanging out with each other anymore.

46. john_minsk ◴[] No.42478137{3}[source]
To clarify, I really think that is what's happening. People feel that their future is not a guaranteed success and make safer choices to be clear minded and focused to achieve success. Probably just my bias is talking...
47. sznio ◴[] No.42478151{3}[source]
the financial crisis was just financial. 9/11 or war on terror was just behind a tv screen.

covid was actually something everyone felt personally - not just empathized with through media. I feel like I just started recovering mentally from the lockdowns - all my college years eaten up by them.

replies(3): >>42479663 #>>42479980 #>>42481896 #
48. aziaziazi ◴[] No.42478185{5}[source]
Those are easier to cope with when you live in a supportive society. _Most_ humans naturally help each others in case of emergency. It’s easier when the framework is already in place.
replies(1): >>42478291 #
49. Tade0 ◴[] No.42478223{3}[source]
Regarding home ownership: they only started with a higher rate. It's too early to say, but considering that growth has stagnated, they're on track to become the generation that will own the least homes.
50. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.42478236{3}[source]
> The post-WWII 20th century American social contract was: "You will have the ability to get married, live in a modest home of your own, own a car, raise 2-3 young children, and go on a modest annual vacation even if you work in a factory"

Few under 50 actually want a suburban home in a no-name town with a single domestic holiday a year and a job requiring physical labor (and hard limits on clocking in and out) that feeds your family with industrial calories.

If you do, you can get that with practically zero training in a mid-tier hospitality job (or working as an e.g. bank teller) with an hour commute each way. Small-town suburban homes are cheap.

51. lizzas ◴[] No.42478291{6}[source]
People help each other in war? Catastophy? Sometimes they do, sometimes they definitely do not.
replies(2): >>42479413 #>>42482237 #
52. jasonkester ◴[] No.42478527{5}[source]
Well said. I remember making a spreadsheet in maybe 1995 laying out the math to compare the real costs and expected gains from buying vs. renting.

It mathed out about even. I decided to go with renting instead of buying, with the logic that the S&P didn’t need me to buy it a new roof every 15 years or to work in its garden every weekend.

It worked nicely too, growing the money that would otherwise have gone into mortgages and property tax, letting me take some of it out recently and buy a house with cash.

I don’t see much of this attitude in my younger friends now. But living cheap and saving does actually work.

replies(1): >>42478955 #
53. cj ◴[] No.42478649{5}[source]
> The homeownership rate for 26-year-old Gen Zers is 30%, below 31% for millennials at 26, 32.5% of Gen Xers at 26, and 35.6% of boomers at 26.

Unless you're specifically 26 years old, I suppose? This analysis seems far from scientific and cherry picks data in strange ways.

replies(1): >>42479134 #
54. exitb ◴[] No.42478737{4}[source]
These changes aren't always easy to spot. I live in a city that acquired a significant Ukrainian population over the last two years. Whenever I see a group of kids that biked to an arbitrary location and play, they turn out to be young Ukrainians. They do the exact thing local kids would do 20 years ago.
55. FooBarBizBazz ◴[] No.42478955{6}[source]
A 20% down mortgage is a 5x levered bet. Plus you can roll capital gains into new real estate. The S&P 500 cannot offer these advantages.
replies(2): >>42479939 #>>42480285 #
56. lazyasciiart ◴[] No.42479115{3}[source]
> Health care costs are growing slower now than any prior decade[3].

I don’t see any data on that page supporting this claim. The current decade is growing much faster than the previous one, and they only show data up to 2023.

> Health spending increased by 7.5% from 2022 to 2023, faster than the 4.6% increase from 2021 to 2022. The growth in total health spending from 2022 to 2023 is well above the average annual growth rate of the 2010s (4.1%).

replies(1): >>42479913 #
57. lazyasciiart ◴[] No.42479134{6}[source]
The fall in genz ownership rates is also quite interesting: I guess they weren’t buying during the pandemic?
58. george_w_kush ◴[] No.42479199{5}[source]
The claim isn’t that homeownership is undesirable to Gen Z, but that a lower percentage of Gen Z owns homes compared to previous generations regardless of the specific reason. I think in this case the most likely cause is the increase in prices is causing houses to be unaffordable to Gen Z, despite their desire to own houses.
replies(1): >>42480163 #
59. ◴[] No.42479413{7}[source]
60. ◴[] No.42479429{3}[source]
61. germinalphrase ◴[] No.42479663{4}[source]
I mean, lock down absolutely was a disruption - but I know more than one or two young men that ended up in the desert after 9/11. Maybe we’ve also acclimated so much to the post-9/11 infrastructure of fear and surveillance that we assume this is how it always was?
62. sdiupIGPWEfh ◴[] No.42479816{3}[source]
> This is what I’m thinking. All of the kids I know from 16-22 are the most level headed group of young adults I’ve known.

Taking this on a bit of a tangent, but as an elder millennial, I recall having been told (by elder relatives in their mid-30s at the time) all about how one day I'd too be an "old fogey" looking down on "teens being teens" and how such progression is just the way of things. Hell, I still hear people preaching such "wisdom" today to their youngers.

Yet here I am, just past the age I'm supposedly meant to start ragging on "kids today", and all I can remark is that this same 16-22 set you speak of are remarkably respectful, polite, and considerate, perhaps more so than my own cohort at that age. I almost worry they're not rebellious enough for their own good.

63. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42479913{4}[source]
I should have said compared to gdp.
64. abduhl ◴[] No.42479939{7}[source]
With the proper mix of retirement accounts, options, and futures contracts it can. It can offer even more leverage if you want.
replies(1): >>42480019 #
65. speakfreely ◴[] No.42479977[source]
First-time home buyers are getting squeezed by a combination of peaking market forces, but those forces are peaking and we're probably seeing the worst of it at this moment [1]. It will get better.

[1] https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/why-i-dont-inv...

replies(2): >>42480518 #>>42482172 #
66. throwameme ◴[] No.42479980{4}[source]
i am just old enough to have experienced 9/11 when i was in elementary school. it was a similar change to society to how covid screwed everything

when i was a child, there was no security in airports. like literally NONE. you could walk in and buy a flight with physical cash. if you wanted an international flight, there was a metal detector like you might find in a night club

government ID and drivers licence did not have your photograph on it, and some state drivers licenses were printed on non-laminated card. there was also no functional internet surveillance (there were no good search algorithms or tools in the early internet, so the government couldnt search either).

but the real big change, which is kind of what everyone felt i think, is the whole world was celebrating the end of the cold war and so vehemently protested going into the middle east, and the government just did it anyway. the largest protests in the history of the west were against that war and it was all totally ignored https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

then we got the PATRIOT act, NSA/CIA spying on the population, heavily armed police. btw, in the 1990s you would NEVER see police with assault rifles and armoured trucks etc except for swat teams in major cities and the ATF. The idea of your local police department having a heap of military equipment was crazy. a great example of this is the LA riots in '92 - they had to call in the army and the national guard because the police simply werent equipped for it

and they would run these polls on tv, like gallup polls, falsely claiming that 20%+ of people publicly supported the war

even though it didnt affect anyone as much personally, it was the turning point where the gov just started brazenly ignoring people and introducing the heavy duty surveillance state, which was especially painfully felt in aus, canada, new zealand, the us, and the uk. and covid19 tyranny was only possible because of what bush did in response to 9/11 - it physically could not have happened in the 1990s as there were no government agencies that could have done it

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67. speakfreely ◴[] No.42480004{3}[source]
This is the inevitable result of higher connectivity in society. More spoils flow to top performers due to the reduced friction. I don't see any way to undo this trend short of undoing the connectivity, i.e. forcibly rolling back technological progress. Kind of a non-starter.
68. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42480019{8}[source]
The bigger win is the government subsidies and tax breaks.

You need very little on hand cash to get a very low interest rate. Much lower than asset loans at equivalent levels of wealth.

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69. kasey_junk ◴[] No.42480074{3}[source]
Neither of my parents _ever_ went on vacation until they were adults themselves. Both were middle class and white. 3 of my 4 grand parents worked in factories. 1 was a teacher.

My dad’s parents owned their own home. The _biggest_ one they owned was 1000 square feet, which they viewed as cavernous. The one my dad lived in as a small child had no indoor plumbing and the heat came from a single wood burning stove. I was alive when my dad first lived in a house with central air.

My mom’s parents never owned a home while she lived with them.

The numbers will back me up that this was a completely typical middle class American experience post ww2.

What seems to have changed is a) the class of housing stock available. b) trends around _where_ people live and c) the narrative about the past.

70. aeonik ◴[] No.42480089{5}[source]
I thought the AR-15s that the police carried in America were semi-auto. More like a sporting rifle than what the military uses.

AR-15s are more versatile than shotguns, though less powerful they are more accurate. If your going to carry a long gun around, it's probably the most logical option.

Basically anyone who isn't a prohibited person in America can field the same equipment. Though I think police have more access to restricted ammunition.

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71. 9rx ◴[] No.42480163{6}[source]
There may be some temporal confusion here. Gen-Z rates of homeownership has stalled out over the past year or so. Prices are no longer rising like they once were, with fears over impending decline, so the desire is not what it once was. It may be fair to say that the narrative has shifted to "too expensive", but as they loaded up early when prices were rising at unprecedented rates there is a big head start at play. They don't have to buy any more homes for a while to maintain the lead.
72. sydd ◴[] No.42480226[source]
I don't think it's be cause if anxiety, it usually increases drug use not decreases.

It's much more about people ha ing less friends and socializing less

73. lotsofpulp ◴[] No.42480285{7}[source]
A 5x levered bet with no prepayment penalty subsidized by future Americans, and it cannot be called and is non recourse in many states. And it provides shelter.
74. kortilla ◴[] No.42480474{3}[source]
> A fast food job might be $17/hr, but the cost of gas is >2x what it was when that same job paid $8/hr

This is probably the worst example. In 2008 gas cost as much as it does now and fast food did only pay $8/hr. https://www.creditdonkey.com/gas-price-history.html

> Millennials are, if anything, brutally realistic

No, your entire post is an example of the dramatic doomerism waxing on the anxieties of normal life. Complaining about anxiety is one of the hallmarks of a millennial.

75. AnarchismIsCool ◴[] No.42480518{3}[source]
Their arguments for "won't go up much" are reasonable but their arguments for "will actually fall enough to allow two generations to finally own homes" are pretty fucking nonsensical.

They're comparing to hosting dips in the world wars and while I assure you ww3 will have enough loss of life to make houses quite cheap a third time, you still won't want them because they'll be covered in radioactive contamination.

The issue isn't blind supply and demand, it's that we've made construction expensive through code and arbitrary supply chain constraints and we're planning to deport all the construction workers. Even if population grown naturally slows to zero we will simply stop building houses because it won't be profitable. That's what got us here in the first place.

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76. kortilla ◴[] No.42480520{3}[source]
Millennials were the same for the ones born in the late 80s and early 90s.
77. chasd00 ◴[] No.42480684{3}[source]
My son is 15 and he’s a lot more level headed, compassionate, and mature than I was at that age. Even his worst friends are just like mischievous vs the real menace to society type teens were in my generation. As a parent, I want to take the credit for the man my son is becoming but I know I’m just a part of the equation. …a BIG part but still just a part :)
78. formerly_proven ◴[] No.42481033[source]
> education costs have vastly outpaced inflation[2] as have medical costs[3].

This is basically a law of nature. Anything that's done by humans and can't be scaled will necessarily get more expensive in real terms over time. See: Baumol effect.

79. lfmunoz4 ◴[] No.42481153[source]
Good point, most people I know who refuse to do drugs (psychedelics) is due to fear
80. pitpatagain ◴[] No.42481155{9}[source]
There is little tax break for home ownership currently with the SALT cap + high standard deduction. You get some break if you have a large enough mortgage or high enough interest rate but it has been very nerfed.
81. MikeRichardson ◴[] No.42481239{4}[source]
> code

I quite like the parts of the code that prevent random electric shocks, and the parts that keep the roof from caving in, etc. (I assume you meant building codes)

The forthcoming mass deportation will definitely fuck shit up though. UK is having a similar issue due to Brexit. I guess Eastern Europeans are to the UK, as Mexicans/etc. are to the US?

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82. nostromo ◴[] No.42481583[source]
This isn't a new phenomenon though.

Gen-X felt the same way. The entire youth culture at the time was based around the vibe that the culture sucked and there wasn't a future worth having for younger people. Apathy was the youth cultural vibe of the day.

Then again with older millenials it happened with the great financial crisis. There was a widespread feeling of hopelessness about the future. Outsourcing and trade liberalization (the AI-like job crusher of that period) left the future job market uncertain.

I think what's new now is social media and persistent phones. If you're feeling anxiety about the future you don't escape into wild parties, you escape into your phone and videogames.

83. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42481711{7}[source]
Actually, anyone who want's to scratch this itch just youtube the Excel World Championships. It's way more entertaining than it has any business being.
84. titanomachy ◴[] No.42481874{6}[source]
Police carrying AR-15s is a very different vibe from police with only holstered sidearms. Regardless of the trigger system they’re equipped with.
85. Wytwwww ◴[] No.42481896{4}[source]
> really ripped away the illusion that the adults of the world are in competent control

In the context of this the GFC was much worse, though. It was entirely avoidable and a direct outcome of extreme greed and extreme incompetence. With Covid/lockdowns all options sucked to one extent or another.

86. crtified ◴[] No.42481920{3}[source]
When I was a kid in the 1980s, distant buildings were bombed too, and endless Cold wars and Middle East wars etc were a given too. However, your average 12 year old doesn't deeply care about finance or politics or distant wars. Their day-to-day routine goes on. Those are adult problems.

With Covid, the difference is that it came home, for everyone. And not just the US, but globally. Every home was directly affected, for months or years. 9/11 or 2008 didn't lock down entire countries for weeks and months at a time, impose country wide curfews, close all schools, suppress all socialising, impose home schooling, adults/parents working from home or not-at-all, shuttering of global supply lines, increased mortality fears for all older relatives, and constant everyday panic headlines and monitoring for years. We're still working through the aftereffects. So yes, very unique, in its direct effect upon the youth of wealthy countries in modern society.

87. titanomachy ◴[] No.42481929{7}[source]
I find it easy to drink in moderation because I only do it socially. One or two drinks at a dinner party has never cost me a day of work. But I have spent a whole morning in bed scrolling Instagram Reels instead of going in to work.

Passive consumption of short-form videos lacks that social feedback mechanism that keeps my behavior in check. It’s easy to stay up way later than I meant to and be wrecked the next day.

Consuming by yourself in a dark room is the default consumption mode for Reels/Shorts/TikTok, whereas in my social circles drinking alone is very unusual.

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88. titanomachy ◴[] No.42482025{3}[source]
My experience is similar. The young people I know don’t seem to struggle any more or less with social media addiction than my peers. But there’s selection bias: I only get to meet young people who are very engaged in their careers or in their (non-online) interests.

Teen suicide rates have almost doubled since the iPhone came out, so I think there’s something real going on here even if it’s not visible to us.

89. immibis ◴[] No.42482127{3}[source]
> He says everyone in the Soviet Union knew the system was failing, but no one could imagine any alternative to the status quo, and politicians and citizens alike were resigned to maintaining the pretense of a functioning society. Over time, the mass delusion became a self-fulfilling prophecy, with everyone accepting it as the new norm rather than pretence, an effect Yurchak termed hypernormalisation.

(Wikipedia: HyperNormalisation#Etymology)

90. dehrmann ◴[] No.42482172{3}[source]
Boomers can't say in their four-bedroom homes forever.
91. dehrmann ◴[] No.42482212{5}[source]
Sounds like you were born around 93, but a lot of the things you're saying weren't the case in 2000. Airports had metal detectors and xrayed carry-ons well before 2000, and drivers licenses also had photos on them around that time. What you're describing is more 1990 than 2000.
92. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42482237{7}[source]
Yes they do [0].

[0] Poland's entire history.

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93. mmooss ◴[] No.42482355{8}[source]
Look up what people in Poland did to help Jewish Poles when the Nazis came in. Someone whose family was from a small town in Poland made a documentary about it maybe 10 years ago. Generations later people in the town were still covering up that their ancestors put the Jewish neighbors in a barn and set it on fire, and still strongly discouraging asking any questions. What happened to the property of the large Jewish population in Poland before the war?

People do help each other. Look what Denmark and Bulgaria did in the same situation.

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94. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.42482910{9}[source]
Yes I am aware of the "szmalcowniki", those that extorted Jews for profit and it is unfortunate.

Are you aware of underground organizations like Żegota? Or Jan Karski who risked his life to document the Warsaw ghetto and providing munitions to the Jewish fighters in the uprising?

Or the thousands of families that helped aid Jews like the Ulma family killed with the family they were hiding, or nun Matylda Getter who rescued hundreds of Jewish children, or Żabiński who hid hundreds in a zoo. Or the 7000+ poles recognized by Yad Vashem, the highest of any nation. Poland was the only occupied country where aiding Jews was punishable by death.

I urge you to look into the following families and their roles in aiding jews in WWII: Ulma, Kowalski, Baranek, Zabinski, Kossak, Podgorski sisters, Wojciechowski, Baranek, Skoczylas, Jarosz, Przybylski, Wolski, Banasiewicz, Bartosiewicz and many others.

Also, I meant more in the general sense of the populace resisting occupation time and time again seeing as we still have a country, which doesn't happen without sacrificing for one another.

What town are you talking about btw?

>Look what Denmark and Bulgaria did in the same situation.

Yes they had much more time to evacuate their Jewish populations. We had the largest population and we were first to be invaded.

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95. ◴[] No.42483286{9}[source]
96. voytec ◴[] No.42483332{9}[source]
Current Israel's gov is the reincarnation of Jewish people's former oppressors.

It's sickening how they're looking into singular events from the past to explain their current attempts at committing ongoing genocide attempts.

97. AnarchismIsCool ◴[] No.42483534{5}[source]
I didn't want to get into a huge aside so I just left it there but imo the NEC et al are absolutely great. In a lot of ways current building standards actually make things easier and cheaper, they remove ambiguity and offer a set of best practices that are time tested to reduce labor and errors.

The issue is how local municipalities enforce it along with zoning to make building massively more bureaucratic. Reaching the right people is impossible, everyone has their own agenda and interpretation, and city councils across the country add arbitrary stipulations entirely to reduce construction so line goes up.

98. makeitdouble ◴[] No.42484083{8}[source]
Would you say the same for people looking at the clouds passing by the window ?

Should we classify these clouds as worse than alcohol because they were looked at alone in a room instead of doing some other work ?

To get more personal, I had a CD player as my alarm in the morning, and a few times skipped worked because I couldn't get myself to stop the playing album. I didn't blame the CD.

That's also how I realized that job was well paying but otherwise really shitty.

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99. mmooss ◴[] No.42484577{10}[source]
I'm not saying nobody in Poland did anything, but that isn't the standard. I think this is the story:

https://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle/film-about-massacr...

100. titanomachy ◴[] No.42484769{9}[source]
I probably wouldn’t stay up 3-4 hours past my intended bedtime staring into space or watching clouds or listening to music. It’s just not stimulating enough. I wouldn’t stay up that late reading either, since once I get tired enough I can no longer do it effectively.

There is definitely something different about TikTok, or video games, compared to your examples.

101. throwameme ◴[] No.42484919{6}[source]
you are correct re: semi autos. most infantry would rarely use fully automatic fire with ar15 spec rifles too, as it is wasteful and inaccurate. exception being squad automatic weapons

echoing wat titanomachy said, there was a time where it was unthinkable to see police with anything more than a sidearm. a lot of police still had revolvers into the 90s as well.