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499 points perihelions | 65 comments | | HN request time: 0.672s | source | bottom
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nabla9 ◴[] No.42191758[source]
October 2023 there was similar incident where Chinese cargo ship cut Balticonnector cable and EE-S1 cable. Chip named 'Newnew Polar Bear' under Chinese flag and Chinese company Hainan Xin Xin Yang Shipping Co, Ltd. (aka Torgmoll) with CEO named Yelena V. Maksimova, drags anchor in the seabed cutting cables. Chinese investigation claims storm was the reason, but there was no storm, just normal windy autumn weather. The ship just lowered one anchor and dragged it with engines running long time across the seabed until the anchor broke.

These things happen sometimes, ship anchors sometimes damage cables, but not this often and without serious problems in the ship. Russians are attempting plausible deniability.

replies(8): >>42191786 #>>42191808 #>>42191875 #>>42191880 #>>42192160 #>>42197213 #>>42197559 #>>42201843 #
cabirum ◴[] No.42192160[source]
After the Nordstream pipeline attacked and destroyed, its reasonable to expect shortened lifetimes for undersea cables and sattelites.
replies(5): >>42192401 #>>42194448 #>>42197215 #>>42198095 #>>42199025 #
1. nradov ◴[] No.42194448[source]
Yes, this is why having a prompt satellite launch capability to replace attrition losses is now a strategic imperative. We need to be able to put up new ones in a matter of hours, not months.
replies(5): >>42194640 #>>42194810 #>>42196625 #>>42196917 #>>42197964 #
2. Gud ◴[] No.42194640[source]
If someone starts blowing up satellites it’s pretty much game over for space based communications.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

replies(4): >>42195155 #>>42196406 #>>42196604 #>>42197152 #
3. dylan604 ◴[] No.42194810[source]
You can have the ability to launch 100 satellites in 10 days, but that doesn't really help if you don't have 100 satellites
replies(1): >>42194919 #
4. nradov ◴[] No.42194919[source]
Well obviously you need to have a supply of replacements in stock. From a military perspective, think of satellites as rounds of ammunition that will be expended during a conflict.
replies(1): >>42196076 #
5. nradov ◴[] No.42195155[source]
The military is shifting toward LEO constellations for communications such as SpaceX Starshield. Kessler syndrome isn't a serious concern for those because the orbits decay fairly quickly anyway.
replies(1): >>42196511 #
6. dylan604 ◴[] No.42196076{3}[source]
I think it'd be more apropos to compare them to fighter jets/tanks vs bullets
replies(1): >>42197621 #
7. tialaramex ◴[] No.42196406[source]
Kessler is often overplayed. Kessler trashes a low orbit and you wouldn't want to launch more birds into the trashed orbit. But, loads of com sats live in MEO or GEO, which is far too high for the numbers to work. They're all fine.

You will even see Kessler cited as some sort of barrier to leaving, which is nonsense.

Imagine there's a 1x1m spot where on average once per week, entirely at random and without warning a giant boulder falls from the sky and if you're there you will be crushed under the boulder. Clearly living on that spot is a terrible idea, you'd die. But merely running through it is basically fine, there's a tiny chance the boulder hits you by coincidentally arriving as you do, but we live with risks that big all the time. If you're an American commuter for example that's the sort of risk you shrug off.

Likewise, Kessler isn't a barrier to leaving, humans won't be leaving because there's nowhere to go. The only habitable planet is this one, and we're already here.

replies(4): >>42196635 #>>42197720 #>>42198119 #>>42198234 #
8. yencabulator ◴[] No.42196511{3}[source]
That "quickly" is on the order of years (as opposed to decades, centuries, etc). If the Starlink constellation goes boom, you can't start launching new ones for several years -- and then the build-up would take years, from there.
replies(1): >>42197520 #
9. varispeed ◴[] No.42196604[source]
Could they place a giant electromagnet in space to collect debris?
replies(2): >>42196909 #>>42197180 #
10. littlecranky67 ◴[] No.42196625[source]
Why is that? Undersea cables makes way more sense - the issue is we have maritime law that allows any nation state to freely roam over important cables. During wartimes this is a complete different story - ships won't be allowed near the lines, and if they do get close they will be destoryed without prior warning. No more anchoring "accidents".
replies(5): >>42197587 #>>42197662 #>>42197706 #>>42198738 #>>42199375 #
11. jgalt212 ◴[] No.42196635{3}[source]
The latency on GEO orbits exclude them from many use cases.
12. kube-system ◴[] No.42196909{3}[source]
Space is too big, and the field of even the world's strongest electromagnets are too small for this to be practical. And even if it did work, you'd only collect ferromagnetic material.
13. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.42196917[source]
"we" are not doing anything AFAICT. Various privately owned corporations might be, and that's very different.

Yes, I know the undersea cables are privately owned too.

replies(1): >>42198083 #
14. elif ◴[] No.42197152[source]
Not true. China has taken down 2 US satellites in the last few years.
replies(2): >>42198152 #>>42198673 #
15. datadrivenangel ◴[] No.42197180{3}[source]
A large enough electromagnet could actually increase effective drag in conductive materials, which may help. All the non-conductive materials would still be there, and paint chips can be brutal at orbital speeds.
16. nradov ◴[] No.42197520{4}[source]
Nah. In any major future conflict, the combatants will go ahead and launch replacement satellites immediately regardless of the risks or long-term consequences (or they'll do it at least as long as their manufacturing and launch facilities survive). A constellation of hundreds of satellites can't go "boom" all at once. Even with a bunch of orbital debris floating around the hazards will be sparse and some satellites will live long enough to be operationally useful.
replies(1): >>42198062 #
17. nradov ◴[] No.42197587[source]
It isn't either/or. Satellites and undersea cables serve different use cases. Cables are great for high bandwidth communications between fixed points but they aren't very useful to mobile military forces and they can't be used for anything beyond communications. We don't have enough ships and patrol aircraft to realistically defend undersea cables outside the littorals.

Satellites can serve multiple purposes including communications, navigation, overhead imagery, signals intelligence, weather, etc. They are also vulnerable, but it's possible to launch replacements faster than repairing damaged cables.

18. nradov ◴[] No.42197621{4}[source]
Not really comparable. A new Starlink satellite costs ~$1M. A new F-35 costs ~$100M, and some of the guided missiles it carries actually cost more than the satellite. The militarized Starshield satellites probably cost more than their Starlink cousins but still I think you get the point that there are orders of magnitude differences in unit cost.
replies(1): >>42198029 #
19. zelphirkalt ◴[] No.42197662[source]
Inofficially Europe is already at war, whether it wants to or not. Maybe someone needs to inofficially keep a close eye on those cables and take inofficial countermeasures against inofficial sabotage acts.
replies(1): >>42197796 #
20. greenavocado ◴[] No.42197706[source]
We are at war. The United States guided an ATACMS missile into Russian territory yesterday. Imagine the absurdity of if China put missiles on the Mexican border and guided them into missile storage facilities 186 miles inside the border.
replies(4): >>42197957 #>>42198480 #>>42198912 #>>42199619 #
21. Gud ◴[] No.42197720{3}[source]
LEO is where starlink is stationed. Really, there is no good scenario where LEO is unusable due to some dumb reason, like blowing up junk in space. I'm not sure our "world leaders" appreciate this.
22. delusional ◴[] No.42197796{3}[source]
No we're not. Nobody in the EU has transitioned to a wartime economy. We are helping out a strategic ally. If Ukraine falls tomorrow an cedes add territory to Russia, the EU is not going to continue fighting, because the war will be over.

That of course assumes that Putin stops at Ukraine. The point is that this isn't our war.

replies(3): >>42198124 #>>42198831 #>>42199115 #
23. NovemberWhiskey ◴[] No.42197957{3}[source]
I think you'll find the ATACMS missile guided itself, based on inertial navigation and satellite positioning data. If your argument is that the United States guided the missile because the US provides GPS, that's a pretty flimsy argument.
replies(1): >>42198076 #
24. 1oooqooq ◴[] No.42197964[source]
weren't those cut exactly because they are the starlink backbone when over Ukraine?
25. dylan604 ◴[] No.42198029{5}[source]
And a bullet costs $0.0001, so it's off just as much in the other direction.

Also, your focus on cost was not the point. The point was numbers necessary. You need $lots of bullets, but you don't need any where near the same number of jets/tanks. You don't need $lots of satellites. You need a much smaller number closer to the number of jets/tanks. At least based on Starlink constellation numbers.

replies(2): >>42198325 #>>42198430 #
26. yencabulator ◴[] No.42198062{5}[source]
For the purposes of the crisis, sure. But commerce and average consumer internet access will suffer hugely. Similarly, severing the sea cable had no direct military effect, but was economic damage. Kessler syndrome is still a serious concern even in LEO, just not to the same extent of practically denying access to space for the foreseeable future.
27. greenavocado ◴[] No.42198076{4}[source]
Ukraine would have folded within a few weeks without the weapons systems of the combined Western nations. The Biden administration has given Kyiv permission to use U.S.-supplied missiles in Russian territory in a major escalation that now threatens nuclear war due to the first use doctrine updates. A few hours ago reports of UK Storm Shadow missiles being fired into Russian territory emerged. The West is at war.
replies(2): >>42198334 #>>42198607 #
28. nradov ◴[] No.42198083[source]
At this point it's a distinction without much of a difference. For better or worse, SpaceX has now been fully integrated into the US military-industrial complex. They have huge DoD contracts to build out the Starshield constellation, including the prompt replacement capability. The US government is going to treat attacks on our critical communications infrastructure seriously, regardless of whether the hardware is publicly or privately owned.
replies(1): >>42199100 #
29. rickydroll ◴[] No.42198119{3}[source]
GEO is safe for now. But... https://spacenews.com/intelsat-33e-loses-power-in-geostation...

The most likely explanation for the unexplained disassembly is that Boeing made it. Second, most likely, is a collision with a hunk of something invisible.

30. K0balt ◴[] No.42198124{4}[source]
You’re in a zero lot line flat and your neighbors house is on fire. I’d be pretty motivated to help out as well, but I don’t think I’d be quite so cavalier about not being on a wartime footing. Russia has shown repeatedly throughout history that it does not honor international agreements in good faith, and that it sees military adventurism as a legitimate way to expand its borders.

After the dust settles on the Ukraine war, if Putin still has the capacity to wage war, he will not likely stop with Ukraine. It is by now obvious that a limited incursion into Poland, for example, will not spark a global thermonuclear war.

Ukrainian suffering is both the litmus test and the vaccination against nuclear escalation that Putin needs to contemplate further expansion.

Political alignments aside, if I were based in Europe I would be very, very concerned.

replies(1): >>42198505 #
31. K0balt ◴[] No.42198152{3}[source]
Really? Thats wild. How is this not seen as a military provocation?
32. davidt84 ◴[] No.42198234{3}[source]
GEO is very cramped. It's just a circle, not a sphere.

Edit: I guess I was assuming geostationary. There's a whole sphere of geosynchronous orbits to play with.

Edit2: I was right the first time, GEO (geosynchronous equatoral orbit) / GSO (geosynchronous orbit), apparently. Now my head hurts.

replies(1): >>42198712 #
33. thfuran ◴[] No.42198325{6}[source]
I assume you can get some significant bulk discounts at DoD scale, but it's probably still more like $0.10 than $0.0001, which is admittedly still rather less than $1M
34. avereveard ◴[] No.42198334{5}[source]
By that logic every dictator t72 field trip would make Russia participant in that local war... Absolutely absurd statement. Siria civil war would see Russia waging war on Russia since their equipment was in both hands. What a contrived statement that the arm provider is at war itself.
35. nradov ◴[] No.42198430{6}[source]
I think you might be getting a little confused by terminology. In military terms a round of ammunition doesn't necessarily describe just a small arms cartridge. It can be any munition that's stored for a long period until needed with minimal maintenance. So even an expensive missile or satellite might be treated as a round of ammunition, depending on the design and concept of operations.
replies(1): >>42198896 #
36. jeltz ◴[] No.42198480{3}[source]
As far as we know Ukraine both put them there and guided the missiles. Please provide proof otherwise.
37. valval ◴[] No.42198505{5}[source]
This is a wildly unpopular opinion after 2022, but Ukraine has nothing to do with Europe other than being in close vicinity geographically.

Ukraine is a corrupt third world country competing in the same league with Botswana and Zambia.

replies(3): >>42198817 #>>42199485 #>>42200485 #
38. maximilianburke ◴[] No.42198607{5}[source]
The passive voice is doing a lot of work here.

Who is now threatening nuclear war?

39. bgarbiak ◴[] No.42198673{3}[source]
They shoot down their own redundant satellites, and it was in 2007 in 2010.
40. tialaramex ◴[] No.42198712{4}[source]
> GEO is very cramped. It's just a circle, not a sphere.

"cramped" the way that like, Alaska is cramped on account of how everybody has to live on the surface, not evenly distributed through the volume of the planet?

Like yeah, it's "just a circle" but did you check the radius of that circle?

Remember if there's debris, the debris isn't stuck in the circle, but, any time it's not in the circle it's harmless. This has the effect of significantly defusing the problem, so in total it's too low risk to be worth considering.

41. amiga386 ◴[] No.42198738[source]
> maritime law that allows any nation state to freely roam over important cables.

I'd like to see your version of maritime law that doesn't allow freely roaming over important cables. Your country's enemies would gladly drop cables totally encircling you and say "uh uh uh, important cables!" if you tried to leave your perimeter

replies(1): >>42199165 #
42. concordDance ◴[] No.42198817{6}[source]
Even Botswana and Zambia aren't in the same league: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...
replies(1): >>42198869 #
43. jyounker ◴[] No.42198831{4}[source]
Nine years ago I was in Riga talking with a Latvian friend, and even then she was telling me how Russia was broadcasting separatist propaganda into Latvia

While the EU may not be at war with Russia, Russia is already at war with the EU.

44. valval ◴[] No.42198869{7}[source]
Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP and Zambia in perceived corruption.
replies(1): >>42199581 #
45. dylan604 ◴[] No.42198896{7}[source]
Unless the satellite is meant to collide with another object, it's never going to be considered ammunition. It is a strategic platform for communication or intelligence gathering or maybe both. So calling a satellite ammunition is just belaboring the point for internet points or something.
replies(1): >>42199108 #
46. anigbrowl ◴[] No.42198912{3}[source]
Why do folks like your self make such foolish analogies? If the US had invaded Mexico like Russia invaded Ukraine then yes, it would be completely fine for Mexico to fire missiles into the US.
47. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.42199100{3}[source]
Not clear how the world's richest man sees this situation. He certainly appeared to feel free to make his own decisions in Ukraine.
replies(1): >>42199227 #
48. nradov ◴[] No.42199108{8}[source]
No, you're still missing an important point. This isn't just semantics. Some types of satellites will be considered ammunition in the same way that some (expensive) aerial recon drones and decoys are already considered ammunition today. Not all rounds of ammunition are intended to physically strike a target.
49. groby_b ◴[] No.42199115{4}[source]
Yes, we are. Outside of Poland, everybody's closing their eyes to it, but war is coming.

We might be able to stop it before it becomes a hot war, but the ambition is there, the indicators are there, the opportunity is there. Assume it's a war. (Unless you're German. I guess our national sport is now making excuses for Russia)

replies(1): >>42200704 #
50. thejazzman ◴[] No.42199165{3}[source]
This assumes people are very stupid, no? Like, as if they wouldn't know what was happening and just had to let it happen?

I realize US politics may suggest otherwise but I can't imagine the military is just gonna stand by and entertain such a farce..

replies(1): >>42200655 #
51. thejazzman ◴[] No.42199227{4}[source]
It's acknowledged in his original biography that the government could seize SpaceX from him for national security purposes etc

But that's an awfully gray area after the last few months

52. hex4def6 ◴[] No.42199375[source]
The exercise left for the reader is to choose two countries that are not adjacent,

and try to plot a path between them without crossing an undersea cable:

https://www.submarinecablemap.com/

replies(1): >>42199526 #
53. aguaviva ◴[] No.42199485{6}[source]
This is a wildly unpopular opinion after 2022, but ...

False.

Ukraine not only has everything to do with Europe -- it is unequivocally European in culture, language, historical involvement and (to the extent that Russia is also considered to be unequivocally European) geography.

It isn't something one can even have an opinion about. Any more than one can have an "opinion" about India being a part of Asia.

54. cperciva ◴[] No.42199526{3}[source]
Looks like you can get between Costa Rica and El Salvador without crossing any cables.
55. aguaviva ◴[] No.42199581{8}[source]
Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP

Ukraine's GDP is close to 10x that of Botswana, and in the last year has grown 10 percent over that of 2022.

replies(1): >>42202123 #
56. aguaviva ◴[] No.42199619{3}[source]
Imagine the absurdity of if China put missiles on the Mexican border ...

Imagine the US engaging in an invasion of Mexico as equally stupid and unprovoked as Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Then not only would Mexico have a perfect right to seek whatever help it needed to resist the aggression directed at it, we would -- unless we were damned fools -- fully expect Mexico to seek and obtain that help.

replies(1): >>42200018 #
57. geomark ◴[] No.42200018{4}[source]
When people say "unprovoked" do they not know the history, or they think the history doesn't matter, or do they just not care?
replies(1): >>42200098 #
58. aguaviva ◴[] No.42200098{5}[source]
Or they know the history all too well.
59. throwawaymaths ◴[] No.42200485{6}[source]
Yes, and Ukraine has steadily going down in corruption since Zelenskyy. So if you actually care about corruption and aren't a concern troll, you will want to encourage the current regime and not the reverse.
replies(1): >>42202129 #
60. amiga386 ◴[] No.42200655{4}[source]
I think you therefore agree with my reductio ad absurdum argument against the GP's claim. Changing maritime law to prohibit free roaming over "important cables" would be a farce. Therefore, the absence of such a law is not "the issue"
61. K0balt ◴[] No.42200704{5}[source]
I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska, near a strategic Cold War military base. I still remember seeing the TU-95 “bear” bombers flying overhead being escorted and turned around by our fighter jets.

It makes it pretty real when 7 year old me is wondering if this one has any nukes on board, and if this will be the day that they drop.

Russia is not to be trusted, imho. They do not honor their international commitments in good faith, and they will expand their territorial claims if they are allowed to do so. Europe, like a frog in a pot, is in peril and they need to take steps to make sure that Russian war fighting capabilities are destroyed through exhaustion in Ukraine.

This of course is tragic for Ukraine, because it means that she will be utterly razed in the process. But if Russia prevails or backs down with strength, it will happen again. And again.

Russias ability to project force in a strategic way must be destroyed. They are not trustworthy stewards of coercive force.

replies(1): >>42200818 #
62. nradov ◴[] No.42200818{6}[source]
I don't trust Russia either, but are you certain that's a real memory? I'm not aware of any confirmed incidents in which USSR bombers actually flew within sight of Fairbanks. They routinely tested our defenses but they didn't penetrate that far into US airspace.
replies(1): >>42201095 #
63. K0balt ◴[] No.42201095{7}[source]
I wish I had a photograph. I’ve been told before that this was impossible by others. I’ve also been told by others that were there that yes, it happened. It may not have been , however, an aggressive incursion, I have no way of knowing that part for sure.

Having fighters scramble from Eilison was not unusual at all, and when hunting out in that area with my father we saw a few of those. It was pretty distinct from the training and combat training they did, so it wasn’t that hard to distinguish the intentionality and risk tolerance that was reserved for that kind of urgency.

Anecdotally, I’m pretty darn sure that I saw a bear flying overhead just a few miles east-southeast of Fairbanks. I watched it be turned by 3 F4 phantoms. I was with my father and a few of his friends, as well as my brother that would have been 13 at the time. Everyone there remembers the event, and it was talked about for days in Fairbanks, we even had a subsequent training the next week in my elementary school on survival in the event of a nuclear attack lol.

Perhaps it was some kind of clandestine fuckery, perhaps it was an authorized flight, or perhaps it would have been to embarrassing / inflammatory to make it an event of record? I’m sure the answers are quietly sitting somewhere in a musty filing box.

64. valval ◴[] No.42202123{9}[source]
Try GDP per capita PPP, the measure that matters for average living conditions
65. valval ◴[] No.42202129{7}[source]
Zelenskyy has stifled opposition and politically persecuted his enemies, actually.