Only 5.3% of US welders are women. After years as a professor, I became one

Why? Men make fun of themselves and each other all the time. It's how we talk. It honestly isn't negative; it's almost a form of banter that tells the truth in a low-key softball way where we can all laugh. Why is banter not acceptable? Who went and took the fun out of life? I'm not talking here about purposefully mean banter or taking things too far. But come on, who made these "rules" you speak of?

I am a man. I don’t know who this “we” is you speak of. Sure as hell isn’t me or my friends.

Assholes exist everywhere, but “we” don’t have to apologize for them or make the workplace a safer space for them.

You do understand "If I can't mock people, what joy is there left in the world?" could make you look like an asshole, right?

Just telling the truth in a low key softball way where we can all laugh, and of course you're laughing right along with me.

I'm a man, and literally every male friend I've ever had engages in this kind of banter. If you and your friends don't, you are outliers.

Fair, but trying to enforce "you're never allowed to mock people, even when those people expect enjoy it and it's all in good fun" also makes you an asshole. Different behaviors are appropriate for different groups. I have groups I swear in, and ones I avoid it in. Same thing.

I like how you've defined yourself as the norm and not the GP, even though you're both calling from your personal experience with a sample size of one.

Speak for yourself. I don’t treat people I care about that way.

It's fascinating for me to watch these comment threads blow up, I hadn't thought this would take off so much.

It's a constant stream of "but my guys don't do this" "but my guys do do this".

It's all just rephrasing of, well, this is the highbrow culture, and this is the working class culture, and I'm in one or the other and you're abnormal.

The reality is that it's just two different worlds and where they clash things get weird.

Looking at _so many_ responses to my post, almost none of which actually have new content, makes me think this is some sort of dead internet bots vs. bots contest.

Only one side is making positive claims in this thread.

I never made a claim that "all men do X" or that "shop talk and banter are fairly universal". I did point out that I and my friends do not mock our friends and colleagues.

Still avoiding positive claims, but here are some normative claims:

  - I object to claiming that mocking is normal and acceptable in all groups of men
  - some, not all, working class subcultures use mocking as a shibboleth
  - this aspect of those subcultures is not a thing I think "we" should valorize

Mockery can be cruel, and even gentle mocking can be irritating or even harmful if it's very repetitious. Mockery is not always appropriate, or even truly funny. Mocking others is not an especially important activity or an especially important form of humor.

Even so, categorical prohibitions of mockery (in society, in particular workplaces, whatever) are truly and obviously joyless propositions. Maybe they're warranted in some contexts! But to say 'there can be no mockery' is indeed inherently stifling.

Banter is wonderful when you are part of the in group, especially if you are the dominant player in that group. But it is often used by members of the in group to marginalise those outside and to maintain the dominance of the leading players in the in group.

How do you know whether the people being mocked genuinely enjoy it or the culture requires them to appear like they enjoy it?

The same way you know whether it's ok to talk about someone's family life, or politics, or anything else; you get to know them.