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317 points diwank | 30 comments | | HN request time: 2.876s | source | bottom
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throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41850185[source]
It is interesting that one of their examples is a "community repair fair", they want to market a sheen of social responsibility without actually taking part themselves.
replies(6): >>41850328 #>>41850406 #>>41850430 #>>41853373 #>>41856540 #>>41857113 #
1. giancarlostoro ◴[] No.41850430[source]
Lowkey wish their laptops would be as they used to be. Being able to swap RAM or hard drives is so basic but so useful.
replies(4): >>41852852 #>>41853334 #>>41853505 #>>41858086 #
2. talldayo ◴[] No.41852852[source]
Drives in particular. Let them solder the memory if they absolutely have to, but exposing even an empty NVMe slot should be standard for laptops. Unfortunately, Apple makes a pretty penny off the storage surcharge so I wouldn't really anticipate that anytime soon.
replies(3): >>41853139 #>>41853202 #>>41853315 #
3. loopdoend ◴[] No.41853139[source]
I will accept the trade off for the performance boost tbh.
replies(1): >>41853581 #
4. franciscop ◴[] No.41853202[source]
They no longer even have a "memory" chip anymore, it's all part of the same SOC AFAIK, so they cannot "solder" it.
replies(2): >>41858508 #>>41861703 #
5. AlexandrB ◴[] No.41853315[source]
Even when Apple laptops had removable solid state storage, it used a non-standard connector[1]. Very consumer and repair hostile. While OWC still made thirds party drives for these[2], few (no?) other companies did.

[1] https://beetstech.com/blog/apple-proprietary-ssd-ultimate-gu...

[2] https://www.owc.com/solutions/aura-n2

6. adolph ◴[] No.41853334[source]
Hot air rework is more accessible than ever. This video is kinda over-the-top breathless, but removing components and reballing new ones isn't rocket science.

https://youtu.be/apEKAY11NQs?t=328

replies(2): >>41853460 #>>41854187 #
7. wasabinator ◴[] No.41853460[source]
It is and will always be rocket science to most people, and orders of magnitude more difficult than swapping a drive or ram sticks.
replies(1): >>41870274 #
8. aucisson_masque ◴[] No.41853505[source]
I have a mac, absolutely love it, hate windows and yet my next laptop will be windows because of that.

You don't realize how much it matters until it does, and then it changes everything. Always having to carry an external drive just because my email takes 150gb of the 256gb MacBook storage is even more annoying than windows puting candy crush saga on the start menu.

replies(5): >>41853840 #>>41854234 #>>41854243 #>>41856855 #>>41860788 #
9. lucb1e ◴[] No.41853581{3}[source]
What performance boost? As in, same software running for comparison on the hardware of interest, one soldered and the other not. I never heard that soldering your SSD on makes it faster...
replies(2): >>41853731 #>>41856273 #
10. jsheard ◴[] No.41853731{4}[source]
It doesn't, Apples SSD performance is fine but unremarkable. Their current machines will do around ~6GB/sec read and ~5GB/sec write, which isn't even at the limit of socketed PCIe4 NVMe drives, nevermind the bleeding edge PCIe5 drives which can do up to ~14GB/sec read and ~12GB/sec write (albeit with excessive heat and power consumption for a laptop).

Soldering the RAM has legitimate performance benefits, but soldering the SSD is just to save space and upsell overpriced upgrades.

replies(1): >>41856078 #
11. bschwindHN ◴[] No.41853840[source]
> just because my email takes 150gb

You have a very different email life than me. Is that like, all emails received in your life, or just huge attachments?

replies(2): >>41854316 #>>41856060 #
12. e44858 ◴[] No.41854187[source]
Apple has been gluing down the NAND on their phones: https://youtu.be/KRRNR4HyYaw

If that practice spreads to the MacBooks, you'll also need a CNC mill.

13. chemmail ◴[] No.41854234[source]
Unfortunately with DDR5L speeds, they need to be embedded to keep signal stability, so you need to find at least a 16GB laptop which is STILL pretty gatekept with a higher chip like i7 so you have to pay $300 more for that extra 8GB, pulling a page from Apple. Luckily m.2 is still a thing and 99% of Windows still use it.
14. dijit ◴[] No.41854243[source]
Why do you need 150G of mail locally? and why did you think it sufficient to bug the absolute minimum spec available?

I’m afraid though that the core premise of your comment is flawed. Storage and especially memory are increasingly soldered to thin and lights. Even professional grade laptops such as the Thinkpad X1 Carbon have soldered memory.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-scourge-of-fully-soldered-...

15. dankwizard ◴[] No.41854316{3}[source]
He's replaced Github repos with local email archives because a Medium article said "One trick to enhance your version control"
16. aucisson_masque ◴[] No.41856060{3}[source]
It's only a few years but lot and lot of attachment. Unoptimized pdf takes a big chunk.
replies(2): >>41859019 #>>41865664 #
17. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41856078{5}[source]
It's crazy that some people think it's apple so it must be special and better not realizing NVMe is a industry standard.
18. loopdoend ◴[] No.41856273{4}[source]
Sorry I was referring to the boost you get from having ram integrated into the chip vis-à-vis apple’s M-line of processors.

Having replaceable ram is not really a marketable feature these days.

replies(2): >>41858557 #>>41882737 #
19. fsflover ◴[] No.41856855[source]
Did you consider Linux instead?
20. crossroadsguy ◴[] No.41858086[source]
My next self-purchased laptop is also going to be one that is not a Mac and buying a 2-3 year extended warranty wouldn't cost half or one third of its price. It will also not increase its price by 25-30% if I choose to double the RAM (and by double I mean 8 to 16, not 32 or so). I asked an Apple fan once why Apple still has 8GB RAM even in their pro models and I got the response because it's Apple, you don't need more than 8GB RAM. And I actually realised why Apple gets away with such practises. They are like the 99.978% of Apple's customer base. They stand in queues to get the latest Apple device and then cry out of joy.

I bought a Dell laptop in 2007 and I was able to "deselect" Windows and it actually had reduced the price. I could do that in the third world and online and in 2007 (again!). I also got home repair in not a tier 1 city of that third world country. I think we went degradingly backwards from there.

21. angoragoats ◴[] No.41858508{3}[source]
The RAM is still very much bog-standard DDR4/DDR5 chips, soldered on a PCB right next to the CPU. Here's an example pic of an M3 motherboard. The CPU/GPU is under the metal piece with the Apple logo on it, and the memory is the two rectangular chips immediately above that.

https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/M3-Macs....

22. angoragoats ◴[] No.41858557{5}[source]
This might be nitpicking but 1) the ram is not integrated into the chip, per se, it's still discrete and soldered on a PCB right next to the CPU, and 2) the increased speed comes from additional memory channels built into the M-series CPUs, not necessarily the fact that the memory is closer to the CPU.

It is true that it's not currently feasible to have socketed memory in a laptop offering 8+ memory channels to enable 200GB/sec+ bandwidth, but you can absolutely get the same (or greater!) memory speeds as an M-series CPU from an x86 desktop workstation.

If Intel/AMD wanted to prioritize memory bandwidth, they could probably work with JEDEC or another industry org to develop a new standard for socketed memory with multiple channels per socket, to enable the kind of speeds that Apple offers. The fact that they haven't (to my knowledge) indicates to me that they don't see it as a big enough priority or benefit.

replies(1): >>41882764 #
23. myroon5 ◴[] No.41859019{4}[source]
Could look into email attachment optimization tooling like https://unattach.app/
24. freedomben ◴[] No.41860788[source]
If you hate Windows, you should really consider Linux instead. Gnome is quite enjoyable and can be relatively easily made to behave similarly to the macos DE. Fedora works pretty well OOTB on most hardware. If you buy as Frame.work[1] laptop, Fedora will install and run very well.

[1] Dislaimer: I'm a community investor in Framework but have three of them because I like them a lot.

25. delfinom ◴[] No.41861703{3}[source]
You are thinking of the iPhones.

All the ARM Macs are separate memory chips.

26. brailsafe ◴[] No.41865664{4}[source]
The total size isn't so surprising to me, many have large archives, but why would it all be local to your main or external drive instead of just loaded on-demand over IMAP or whatever?
27. adolph ◴[] No.41870274{3}[source]
I disagree that the current state of an art will not change. Consider the solution-state as a vector. 18 years ago people were performing reflow repair with candles! [0] Pathfinding hackers are able to perform the task now more precisely and with consumer priced tools.

SMD and BGA are definitely headed in a direction of non-specialized solubility at an individual level. What will drive it most quickly is that it is easier and more precise than holding an iron, solder wire and two components together.

0. https://www.geektechnique.org/projectlab/726/diy-obsolete-ib...

28. lucb1e ◴[] No.41882737{5}[source]
> replaceable ram is not really a marketable feature these days

A week ago, I helped a family member select a laptop. One of the criteria is either sufficient RAM to begin with (16GB puts them into a price class above what they actually need for other specs) or upgradeable RAM. It's definitely something I look at for myself and for those around me also -- more so than in the past because nowadays it has become a problem...

29. lucb1e ◴[] No.41882764{6}[source]
> 1) the ram is not integrated into the chip, per se, it's still discrete and soldered on a PCB right next to the CPU, and 2) the increased speed comes from additional memory channels built into the M-series CPUs

Thanks, I did not know this! I would have honestly have bought into Apple's marketing that the soldering is what allows them to make it more integrated and faster

replies(1): >>41882974 #
30. angoragoats ◴[] No.41882974{7}[source]
You're welcome! In fairness to Apple, having shorter traces between the CPU and main memory does in fact decrease latency and power requirements. It's just not the only, or even the best, way to get more performance out of memory chips.

The CAMM2/LPCAMM2 standard is a new way of having replaceable memory which takes up less physical space and is faster, if you're interested. There are a few laptops (and desktops) out there using it already. It still only supports dual-channel memory, though.

As I said originally, my suspicion is that "200GB/s+ memory bandwidth!" might be good marketing copy and make for good synthetic benchmark results, but just isn't actually that beneficial for the average computer user in the real world. This could be why you don't see other computer manufacturers pursuing it, at least not in laptops.