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585 points mocko | 51 comments | | HN request time: 2.317s | source | bottom
1. zecho ◴[] No.4023608[source]
On one hand, this is a momentous day for private space flight. On the other, we're closer to Moon lobbyists than ever.
replies(2): >>4023668 #>>4023669 #
2. vecinu ◴[] No.4023668[source]
Privatizing area on the Moon is quite frightening to think about. I wonder if one day copyright law will also reach other planets and moons.
replies(5): >>4023747 #>>4023761 #>>4023838 #>>4025353 #>>4025380 #
3. ConstantineXVI ◴[] No.4023669[source]
If we had moon lobbyists, at least NASA would get better funding. I'd take moon lobbying over coal/oil/defense/farming/etc. any day.
replies(2): >>4023857 #>>4025442 #
4. cglace ◴[] No.4023747[source]
I disagree. Privatizing the moon has been a dream of mine since I was a kid.

I like to think of it as Galt's Gulch in space.

replies(1): >>4024884 #
5. thu ◴[] No.4023761[source]
With asteroid mining companies, someone will have to decide which companies can get at which asteroids.
replies(3): >>4023881 #>>4024132 #>>4024446 #
6. jerf ◴[] No.4023838[source]
Where humans go, human concerns will follow. The sole, singular, and only alternative is for humans not to go.

(And for those inclined to take that as their cue to strike the fashionable misanthropic pose where they claim that would be a good thing, remember: The moon is a dead, sterile rock. The Moon has no copyright law because there is no creative activity of any kind there taking place that could be copyrighted. There is nothing there to abuse, no "environment" to foul, no natives to exploit, nothing, not even bacteria. The alternative to humans going there is death, forever. And not "human" death, either, but total death. No life. Deader than the worst possible nuclear holocaust could ever make Earth. If that is truly your position, fine, but I hope I can at least remove the fashionableness from your pose.)

replies(3): >>4023928 #>>4024044 #>>4024282 #
7. CWuestefeld ◴[] No.4023857[source]
I think part of the problem is that we're willing to accept bad behavior when it's done on behalf of the team we agree with.

If something is bad, then it's bad even when it's done by your team.

The end does not justify the means.

replies(2): >>4023964 #>>4024863 #
8. jpendry ◴[] No.4023881{3}[source]
that's easy: whichever company can shoot down all other companies ships, and still manage to land and mine said asteroids, wins.

the name of this game? "king of the asteroid"

replies(1): >>4023952 #
9. DanI-S ◴[] No.4023928{3}[source]
> There is nothing there to abuse, no "environment" to foul, no natives to exploit, nothing, not even bacteria.

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but this is incorrect. The Moon is a uniquely pristine environment that holds irreplaceable evidence regarding the formation of both our and other solar systems. It may even contain bacteria, trapped long-dead within meteorites, that could tell us more about the development of life on Earth or elsewhere.

It is of huge importance that we are able to extract as much of this information as possible before we start tearing it up.

replies(1): >>4023938 #
10. jerf ◴[] No.4023938{4}[source]
There is a planet full of it. An entire planet. If we made a conscious effort to deliberately go forth and destroy all evidence, it would take us millennia... with generous technological assumptions.

Also an entire solar system and indeed an entire universe full of further such stuff.

Space is big.

This is a terrible argument.

replies(1): >>4024454 #
11. vecinu ◴[] No.4023952{4}[source]
"Game of Asteroids".

I know we like to bring elements from the video game EVE into our reality but that is very implausible.

12. rmassie ◴[] No.4023964{3}[source]
Can anyone tell me why lobbying is inherently bad?
replies(7): >>4024010 #>>4024088 #>>4024090 #>>4024093 #>>4024708 #>>4024768 #>>4025138 #
13. Alex3917 ◴[] No.4024010{4}[source]
It's not. If not for lobbyists we'd have no bill of rights, we'd all still be driving cars that exploded whenever they got rear ended, our rivers would still catch fire on a regular basis, etc.
replies(1): >>4024372 #
14. stcredzero ◴[] No.4024044{3}[source]
The Moon has no copyright law because there is no creative activity of any kind there taking place that could be copyrighted.

I'm glad they didn't copyright the footprints.

replies(1): >>4024119 #
15. ep103 ◴[] No.4024088{4}[source]
There is no problem with private economic interests consulting government. It is in the interest of society for government officials to hear what is best for the economy from the major economic organizations.

Lobbying is berated because economic organizations should not be granted larger influence on governmental officials than the people en mass in a democratic republic, and most people would argue that is the current state in the US.

replies(1): >>4024326 #
16. camiller ◴[] No.4024090{4}[source]
It's not, unless you disagree with the ends the lobbyist is lobbying for.
17. CWuestefeld ◴[] No.4024093{4}[source]
I don't believe that it is.

I was just saying that if that is your position, then you must object to it for all parties.

18. camiller ◴[] No.4024119{4}[source]
You mean the photos of the footprints?
replies(1): >>4030217 #
19. camiller ◴[] No.4024132{3}[source]
It'll be like the gold rush, stake a claim, file it with the regulating agency, shoot anyone that trespasses.
20. ttt_ ◴[] No.4024282{3}[source]
>> There is nothing there to abuse, no "environment" to foul, no natives to exploit, nothing, not even bacteria.

Don't forget that stuff in space affects other stuff in space. Let humans do as they please in the moon and they might affect a thin balance between the Earth and the Moon.

Earthquakes on Earth can shift its axis[0]. Seeing as ehe Moon has approximately 1/4 Earth's diameter, 1/50 Earth's volume, and 1/80 Earth's mass, it is a much more fragile place than Earth and what's to say that an accidental explosion could not affect its orbit? The slighest change would probably affect tides in Earth.

Even if that is not much plausible (I'm not an expert), what about simply extracting rocks to sell as moon suveneirs? That alone would ammount to change its mass > gravity > orbit.

[0] - http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-12/world/japan.earthquake.ts...

replies(1): >>4024453 #
21. drumdance ◴[] No.4024326{5}[source]
It's a self-reinforcing thing. Corporations don't hire lobbyists until their interests are threatened by government. For example, Microsoft didn't start giving money to Congress until the DOJ started investigating them. Same for Google.

Once a company invests in lobbying, lobbyists have an incentive to keep clients on retainer, so they look for rent-seeking opportunities that they can justify on an ROI basis. Hence all the shenanigans around taxes. Spending $500k on a lobbyist to save $1 million in taxes is a no-brainer.

22. leot ◴[] No.4024372{5}[source]
That all sounds like lobbying from non-corporate entities.
replies(1): >>4024503 #
23. run4yourlives ◴[] No.4024446{3}[source]
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

The other tenth is having the biggest fuck off guns to destroy all contenders.

replies(1): >>4024688 #
24. nkoren ◴[] No.4024453{4}[source]
Sigh. Some people have no grasp whatsoever of the insignificant scale of human activity in the context of planet-sized objects. For some perspective:

Let's say we start extracting rocks from the moon. Let's say we get SO enthusiastic about this that our extraction of rocks from the moon becomes equivalent to the total amount of iron mined every year on Earth. That's a completely ridiculous thing to suppose, but let's roll with it. That's 2,400,000,000 tons of stuff removed from the moon every year. A big number, right?

The mass of the moon, however, is 73,477,000,000,000,000,000 tons. So at this completely ridiculous rate of mining, it would take just over 306 MILLION YEARS to change the mass of the moon by even 1%.

So, what would happen if we did change the mass of the moon by that much? Answer: basically nothing. The moon has been slowly spiralling away from the earth since its formation, meaning its gravitational effects are decreasing all the time, to no ill effect. 306 million years from now, it will have lost much more than 1% of its tidal influence on earth -- and nobody will be the wiser. It just doesn't matter that much.

In short, he notion that the gravity of the moon could be upset by us mining for trinkets is as preposterous as the notion that my sneeze in London could collapse a skyscraper in Chicago.

replies(2): >>4024791 #>>4024974 #
25. DanI-S ◴[] No.4024454{5}[source]
How could we possibly eat all these pigeons? There are flocks, 300 miles long, that turn the sky dark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Pigeon

replies(1): >>4024470 #
26. jerf ◴[] No.4024470{6}[source]
Complete bollocks. This is a planet. You are talking about taking a shovel to an entire planet. This is not something that's going to just, whoops, accidentally happen in a couple of hours, sorry, didn't think about all that science lying around. We haven't even done that level of "damage" to Earth, by orders of magnitude, with the entire history of human civilization, on a much larger planet, and you're sitting there worrying about bespoiling a dead rock.

By the time we've "wrecked" all that precious precious data about the formation of the solar system we'll have better recording equipment than we can even dream of now anyhow, since we're talking centuries and centuries from now in the "best" case. Not to mention we'll have visited a few other places in this case.

replies(1): >>4024711 #
27. CWuestefeld ◴[] No.4024503{6}[source]
False. Those were corporation. Perhaps you didn't realize that Sierra Club, Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, etc. are corporations?

Corporations are not just businesses. They are the way that people with a common interest can pool their resources to coordinate on a common goal.

replies(2): >>4024602 #>>4024622 #
28. leot ◴[] No.4024602{7}[source]
Well, then, I meant non-profits -- my mistake.

That is, all this "good" lobbying was by organizations operating on behalf of a large group of individuals who don't have the same shared profit-driven interest.

replies(1): >>4025374 #
29. jbooth ◴[] No.4024622{7}[source]
Nonprofit advocacy organizations may be incorporated but it's really not what the parent poster meant by "corporations".
replies(1): >>4024864 #
30. joshu ◴[] No.4024688{4}[source]
On one hand, I believe that violence is bad.

On another, OMG SPACE GUNS YAY!

31. stcredzero ◴[] No.4024708{4}[source]
Well, people aren't inherently bad, but when you get lots of people living in the same space, bad things often happen because it's hard to coordinate.

The same thing goes for people in the same "political space."

32. DanI-S ◴[] No.4024711{7}[source]
There's no need for the aggression. We're two grown-ups here, having a discussion about a subject we both find fascinating.

That aside, here's some elaboration.

Trillions of meteorites have landed on the Moon's surface since its formation. Some of these may be remnants from violent collisions between other planetary bodies. A few of these events may have happened at a time where life was starting on Earth. An tiny portion of these pieces of rock may actually contain fossil evidence of early life, in the form of bacteria or complex biochemistry. Similar evidence that once existed on Earth is likely to have been destroyed by our active geology, or by more recent biological processes.

The likelihood of life being preserved in this manner is so vanishingly small that, out of the trillions of meteorites on the Moon's surface (an area around 20% larger than that of Africa), only a minute number of them are likely to contain anything like it.

It would be a shame if the key to understanding abiogenesis was lost in an industrial rock-grinder.

33. guelo ◴[] No.4024768{4}[source]
The problem with lobbyists is that there are always competing interests on any issue and legislators should weigh them with the overall good of society in mind. But lobbyists' campaign contributions make it hard for legislators to fairly weigh the competing interests, instead they favor the guys that cut them the biggest check. So all our legislation is now tailored for the wealthiest and most powerful interests.
34. ttt_ ◴[] No.4024791{5}[source]
>> Some people have no grasp whatsoever of the insignificant scale of human activity in the context of planet-sized objects.

Guess you're right. Thanks for the clarification.

35. philwelch ◴[] No.4024863{3}[source]
Hm, this argument sounds morally equivalent to pacifism, and I don't mean that in a good way. While in an ideal world there would be no lobbying, in the real world, if the bad guys have lobbyists, the good guys should too, if just to defend themselves from the lobbyists of the bad guys.
36. ◴[] No.4024864{8}[source]
37. philwelch ◴[] No.4024884{3}[source]
...because there's no better place for a group of self-sufficient Randian heroes to live in complete isolation from the rest of the world than a barren rock in space that would have to import nearly everything from the earth?
replies(1): >>4025229 #
38. EwanG ◴[] No.4024974{5}[source]
Dateline - November 10, 2015 - In perhaps the most bizarre twist in the story detailing the strange hurricane that recently destroyed the Willis Tower (nee the Sears Tower) in Chicago, a scientist has used one of the new climate modeling systems to identify the sneeze that he claims pushed the chaotic drivers that caused Hurricane Zed to take such a strange course inland along the Great Lakes. Dr. Zimmat has been using the new Watson 2nd series in an attempt to untangle chaos theory to find the ultimate causes of major weather events, in the hopes of finding humanly affectable actions that could help to dampen the ever increasing number of Hurricanes.

"I'm afraid I can't release the name of the individual," Dr. Zimmat explained, "however by using the network of cameras in downtown London and correlating with the time our models show an unusual movement of air, we can with 90%+ certainty say that a gentleman's sneeze in the wrong direction is ultimately to blame".

Investigators for London Yard remain mute on whether any action is being taken, while inside sources state that it would be hard to prove anything more than unintentional manslaughter. US investigators, however, are working on a theory that members of Al Quaida may have planted a mole in London to execute the sneeze.

1/2 :-)

replies(1): >>4025050 #
39. nkoren ◴[] No.4025050{6}[source]
Bloody hell - I've been sussed!
40. roc ◴[] No.4025138{4}[source]
If lobbying were just groups of vested interests putting their best foot forward, that would just be free speech.

But "Lobbying", the practice, is understood by the public to be the process whereby monied interests essentially buy votes via graft, bribery, etc and/or buy votes via contributions to re-election campaigns.

The result being that it is (usally) not the speech and thus the data or moral argument that changes minds in government, but the money.

And that is what's inherently bad.

41. jlgreco ◴[] No.4025229{4}[source]
What's wrong with imports?
replies(1): >>4026559 #
42. snth ◴[] No.4025353[source]
Is there no Hacker News story that can pass without reference to copyright?
43. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.4025374{8}[source]
So profit = evil is the crux of the argument? The Chamber of Commerce is a non-profit while many Sierra Club sponsors are businesses who benefit from the regulation they promote.
replies(1): >>4025861 #
44. javert ◴[] No.4025380[source]
Privatizing area on the moon would be a great way to fuel colonization there.
45. unfletch ◴[] No.4025442[source]
If we had moon lobbyists, it would probably be because the coal/oil/defense/farming/etc. industries discovered a way to make some money up there.
replies(1): >>4025501 #
46. hammersend ◴[] No.4025501{3}[source]
Sounds like a good place for them to me.
47. leot ◴[] No.4025861{9}[source]
When people or organizations get together and lobby the government so that their business or industry makes more money as a consequence of the changes they're lobbying for, then yes, that's bad. Sure, corporations should be able to influence policy, but this influence must happen democratically and out in the open, and potentially opposing parties must have an opportunity to comment.

The fix doesn't lie, however, in hoping that businesses will voluntarily stop lobbying, so I won't criticize back-country tourism companies from giving money to the Sierra Club to ensure that their venues remain unspoilt. Even if a business didn't want to, it might nonetheless feel compelled to lobby congress for reasons of competitive advantage. When many entities feel compelled to act in opposition to their ethics, it's a sure sign that the system they operate in is broken.

(That said, many businesses sponsor the Sierra Club for P.R. reasons, which is fine and categorically different from the "bad lobbying" explained above)

48. unimpressive ◴[] No.4026559{5}[source]
Well, earth then has the power to dictate terms to the moon-colonists.

Such a situation is not favorable for the sort of thing the grandparent post had in mind.

replies(1): >>4027711 #
49. jlgreco ◴[] No.4027711{6}[source]
However when we are talking about a reality in which there are multiple independent and competing launch entities, the idea of "the earth" as a single entity capable of deciding not to service colonists makes much less sense.
replies(1): >>4027908 #
50. philwelch ◴[] No.4027908{7}[source]
The whole point of Galt's Gulch is that the world is corrupt and evil and the Randian heroes have to establish a self-sufficient colony where they can support themselves, and stay there until the evil altruistic world collapses under its own weight. That's rather opposed to the concept of having to import everything.
51. stcredzero ◴[] No.4030217{5}[source]
So, to paraphrase you and Magritte: This is not a footprint.