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231 points rntn | 22 comments | | HN request time: 0.723s | source | bottom
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alex_suzuki ◴[] No.35413018[source]
Italy really knows how to focus on what’s really important to address challenges like high unemployment and weak economy.
replies(6): >>35413031 #>>35413085 #>>35413140 #>>35413154 #>>35413217 #>>35413493 #
1. borroka ◴[] No.35413140[source]
It is a very poor argument and ignores the fact that the lives of people, institutions and countries are not just about (the very important) jobs and economics.

I, who have lived in the United States for decades, cringe when English words are used instead of those of my native language to give a sense of respectability to those words.

A global culture and a world homogenized in ways of living is a much less interesting world.

replies(4): >>35413212 #>>35413223 #>>35413279 #>>35413950 #
2. linhns ◴[] No.35413212[source]
Yes, and if you actually read the bill (I'm not Italian, just trying to translate it online), it just bans other languages in official documentation, which every country does. I'm surprised Italy has not done it until now.
replies(2): >>35413288 #>>35413339 #
3. aniforprez ◴[] No.35413223[source]
I'm sure it is very important that the government make it a punishable offense to say "bru-shetta" instead of "brus-ketta" for the word bruschetta. This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people
replies(2): >>35413293 #>>35413301 #
4. version_five ◴[] No.35413279[source]
Culture can still thrive without being nationalist or traditionalist or whatever you call it.

What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture?

I live in Quebec, Canada, where there is extreme policing of the French language, including various unconstitutional legislation to "preserve" French (the Canadian constitution has an override clause). It's a purely populist measure that does nothing for culture. I find it ironic but typical how much Quebec focuses on superficial cultural aspects (language) while hardly engaging at all with real questions of celebrating heritage - and other than the language, the culture is way closer to english canada than anything European.

Anyway, these language things are shallow populist measures to whip up a base, they're not about serious stewardship of cultural identity.

replies(3): >>35413407 #>>35413582 #>>35413606 #
5. kuboble ◴[] No.35413288[source]
From the article i understood it goes deeper. It includes all official communication like job offers - not limited to public institutions. So you could be fined for having a position for "Product Manager" or "Test Engineer", etc.
replies(1): >>35413344 #
6. gordian-mind ◴[] No.35413293[source]
> This would mean that saying “bru-shetta” instead of “bru-sketta” could be a punishable offense.

Maybe you missed the world "could" in this phrase. Actually, with a bit a critical thinking, you would realize this is a complete invention by the CNN author...

7. borroka ◴[] No.35413301[source]
"This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people"

What is a "productive" use of the votes of the people is up for debate. I am not ashamed to say that I am all for strong regulations that preserve the use and dignity of local customs and traditions (when those customs and traditions don't affect the life and freedom of others, cruelty etc.).

8. mmarq ◴[] No.35413339[source]
No, its probably broader than that, but it’s not written very clearly. And it doesn’t matter because every year some new idiot emerges to propose laws like this, that are never approved and often not even discussed in Parliament.
9. linhns ◴[] No.35413344{3}[source]
If you advertise these positions in English, that's fine. But must be Italian in official contracts.
10. borroka ◴[] No.35413407[source]
According to this comment, we should (just) accept that English, in a generation or two, will become some sort of world language with no interest in the preservation of other languages and cultures associated with those cultures.

This is a bit provocative, but while we are there, we could also tear down the Colosseum, the Forum too since it is all rubbish, and build instead offices, or residential communities because who cares about those old buildings and "nationalists" and "traditionalists" or "whatever you want to call it".

There is often this idea that if you do one thing, you cannot do another, like there is some trade-offs between the use of the local language on official documents and the management of museums. But most of the time, there are no trade-offs, and the two actions are independent.

>> "What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture?"

I am generally in favor. I mean, better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway.

replies(1): >>35413694 #
11. rcme ◴[] No.35413582[source]
And yet Qubec is one of the most culturally distinct places in the U.S. and Canada combined. Surely cultural preservation laws are part of that.
replies(2): >>35413649 #>>35414240 #
12. hnuser847 ◴[] No.35413606[source]
> What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture?

The difference is that English is THE dominant global language, pushed by two global empires (first the British empire and now the American empire). It does not need protection, as it essentially like an invasive species at this point. It’s reasonable for counties to want to protect their native language(s). We’re already rapidly trending towards a global, American-flavored monoculture. Why make it worse?

13. version_five ◴[] No.35413649{3}[source]
Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
14. thesuperbigfrog ◴[] No.35413694{3}[source]
>> better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway.

Ham and prosciutto are very different foods.

If words come from another language and mean different things, let those words exist as they are. If a new native word is created from the foreign word, that is okay. That is how languages grow and evolve.

The law in question just says official documents and communications must be in Italian which makes perfect sense in Italy.

15. dehrmann ◴[] No.35413950[source]
In college, I took an English/linguistics class called "History of the English Language." One big takeaway from it was that prescriptive languages never work, and pragmatism always wins over purity. You say you "cringe" when hearing English words in the context of your native language. English, too, is packed with loanwords. Espresso (I see you, Italian), taco, kimchi, sauna, schadenfreude, not to mention phrases lifted directly from other languages like "c'est la vie" or "et cetera."

I don't disagree that a homogeneous world is less interesting, but in a world where you can travel between every major city in less than 24 hours, and communication is unified and instantaneous, this is the natural outcome, and government word policing is a losing fight.

replies(1): >>35415141 #
16. dghughes ◴[] No.35414240{3}[source]
We have many French cultures in Canada besides Quebecois. There are Acadian people in The Maritimes they are not Quebecois many forced to flee to Louisiana and are called Cajuns. Non-Quebecois French people in Ontario and the prairies, plus Metis (French+First Nations) on the prairies too.

Other distinct cultures in Canada would be Newfoundland a separate nation for years. Plus all the First Nations across Canada and Inuit in the northern territories and Labrador goes without saying.

You could even add the 500,000 Ukrainians on the prairies a culture going back probably 150 years.

Chinese culture too first starting in the province of BC since probably 1800 older than my own Irish culture the majority who only came here in the mid 1800s to 1870s.

replies(1): >>35414640 #
17. rcme ◴[] No.35414640{4}[source]
And none of those cultures have cultures nearly as strong as the Quebecois, which is basically a global cultural brand at this point.
replies(2): >>35414757 #>>35421766 #
18. detaro ◴[] No.35414757{5}[source]
"global cultural brand" is a terrible way of measuring "strength" of a culture. (I'd hope for the people of Quebec that there is more to their culture than the brand, which is approximately "the weird Canadians that try to out-french the French")
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19. borroka ◴[] No.35415141[source]
I don't see any inevitability in the development of human culture (and technology), which is instead often perceived as such when looking backwards and not forward.

History could have been taken a million different trajectories and we, looking back at its course, would always be tempted to say that what's going on today was, overall, inevitable. If not for a very harsh winter decades ago, maybe German would be the lingua franca of today's Europe: "it was inevitable", many would say, "it all started with Bismarck".

And I don't see why the fact that we use the word "espresso" (or expresso :)) in the US should mean that, in the US, Italian, Greek, or French words should be used in official documents as liberally as English words are in other non-English speaking countries' official documents. Why should it be acceptable to use "governance" instead of the Italian words "governo" or "amministrazione"? Why "fiscal compact" instead of "patto di bilancio" where both combinations of words express the same concept but one in a foreign language and the other in the official language of the country?

Using "espresso" and not another (equivalent) English word makes sense, because the Italian word also denotes the origin of the product. Using "hip hop" makes sense in non-English speaking countries, like "rock" for the music (but not the stone). "Schadenfreude", on the other hand, still sounds quite ridiculous when said by non-German speaking people, a bit like using "I went to the Ville Lumière" instead of "I went to Paris, oh those croissants, mon dieu!". That language should not be regulated by any government, the ridiculousness of its use should just be common sense, which is unfortunately as scarce today as it was in the past. But a woman can dream.

Which brings me to the another component: concepts expressed in English tend to appear, in non-English speaking countries, as more respectable, more serious. "That's how they do in the US, the wealthiest countries in the world!".

But this is just smoke thrown into people's eyes.

20. rcme ◴[] No.35415681{6}[source]
There have been many North American cultures imported from Europe. In the US and Canada, they all tend to die out after a certain amount of time. E.g. the Spanish had a colony in Florida. The Dutch had a claims to the Hudson valley in NY/NJ. Lots of Scandinavian settled the frontier. Italians in the NYC area. The list goes on.

Quebec is one of the oldest cultures in the former British NA colonies. Say whatever you want about the Quebecois, they know how ti preserve their culture.

21. dghughes ◴[] No.35421766{5}[source]
Yeah Acadian/Cajun totally unknown of /s
replies(1): >>35428315 #
22. rcme ◴[] No.35428315{6}[source]
https://www.theadvocate.com/curious_louisiana/curious-louisi...

> Some data suggest there are perhaps 120,000 French speakers in the state, down from about 1 million just 60 years ago. Of those, perhaps 20,000 speak Cajun French, others traditional French.

Sounds like the culture is thriving.