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125 points akeck | 24 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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charcircuit ◴[] No.33579956[source]
Looking at the comment section it seems that people struggle to understand how it works and thinks it is literally copying parts of people's images.

Educating people about such a technical topic seems very difficult especially since people get emotional of their work being used.

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kadoban ◴[] No.33580089[source]
It's worse than copying parts of images, it's replacing artists.

I know because I'm literally working on setting up Dreambooth to do what I'd otherwise have to pay an artist to do.

And not only is it replacing artists, it's using their own work to do so. None of these could exist without being trained on the original artwork.

Surely you can imagine why they're largely not happy?

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1. toomuchtodo ◴[] No.33580251[source]
No one is happy when technology renders them obsolete or drives the marginal cost of what they produce to zero.
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2. kadoban ◴[] No.33580273[source]
And in my lifetime it'll probably come for coders too.

What happens to society when none of the workers are needed anymore, and any pretense of it being anything other than solely "the rich get richer" disappears?

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3. toomuchtodo ◴[] No.33580307[source]
Transition to a superior compatible economic system? It’s all I’ve got honestly as a suggestion. The technology is coming regardless.
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4. Daub ◴[] No.33580364[source]
This is manifestly true. Artists worried that they would be rendered obselete by photography, and to a degree they were correct. Those that survide had to completely redifine their role and how they served that role.
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5. kadoban ◴[] No.33580365{3}[source]
Yeah, that's about the only real choice, but how messy will it be getting there? Certain political parties will absolutely burn everything down before they let anything like that happen.
6. 6gvONxR4sf7o ◴[] No.33580415[source]
Traditionally technology renders people obsolete because the technologists figure out how to do something better than those people. Nobody's happy when it comes for them, but that's life. Someone invents the camera, and art is changed forever.

In this case, technologists figured out how to exploit people's work without compensating them. A camera is possible without the artists it replaces. Generative modeling is not. It's fundamentally different.

If people figured out how to generate this kind of art without exploiting uncompensated unwilling artists' free labor, it would be a different story.

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7. ◴[] No.33580512[source]
8. bugfix-66 ◴[] No.33580536[source]
Thank you for saying it.

We're surrounded by people who don't understand what's happening. They seem to think some kind of art intelligence has been invented.

No, it's the aggregation and interpolation of vast amounts of existing art.

The same thing is happening with software, through Microsoft's Copilot:

https://bugfix-66.com/7a82559a13b39c7fa404320c14f47ce0c304fa...

I think people just don't understand what they're seeing. They have no idea what it is.

They think it's really "intelligence", dreaming and imagining and simulating and feeling and experimenting and...

It's none of these things. It's a sophisticated interpolation, not so different from linear interpolation:

  a*x + (1-a)*y
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9. frumper ◴[] No.33580562[source]
I am not a portrait artist despite having a camera. Instead of hiring a portrait painter, I hire a photographer. It’s much cheaper now, so I can afford to hire many portraits throughout my life. It still takes an artist to get a good portrait.
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10. visarga ◴[] No.33580597[source]
> If people figured out how to generate this kind of art without exploiting uncompensated unwilling artists' free labor, it would be a different story.

No it wouldn't. It would still compete against artists. We'd have worse models in the beginning and it would take time until someone licensed enough images to improve the models, but the capability is there and we know about it, too late to stop.

By the way, Stable Diffusion has been fine-tuned with Midjourney image text pairs. So now we also have AI trained on AI images.

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11. visarga ◴[] No.33580604{3}[source]
Memes (in the sense Dawkins used) have found easier replication into this new medium. Rather than jumping from brain to brain, with the intermediate step of writing, our old memes now replicate by language model. They do meaningful work when deployed without a human in the loop.

I think both humans and AI without training are stupid. Take a human alone, raised alone, without culture. He/she will be closer to animals than humans. It's the culture that is the locus of intelligence and we're borrowing intelligence from it just like the AIs.

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12. Daub ◴[] No.33580609{3}[source]
Portraiture is a good example of what I mentioned. I am a painter, but I would say that a camera is far more capable of capturing the subtleties of the human face your than a painter. Don't believe me? Search for paintings made before 1800 that feature a smiling face. They exist, but even the lamest insta does a better job of showing us those fleeting facial moments.

Landscapes are another matter. Try finding any photo of a landscape that is half as sublime as the landscape paintings made by the Hudson river school. An effective painter can improve upon optical reality in a way that beggers belief. They do this with a clever mix of increasing contrast and affinity in a way that would be almost impossible for a photographer.

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13. bitwize ◴[] No.33580793{4}[source]
The Mona Lisa kind of proves your point: the smile is very slight. Were it broad, there would have to be exacting detail given to the configuration of the facial muscles in order to convey the emotion of the smile.
14. orbital-decay ◴[] No.33581051{3}[source]
>So now we also have AI trained on AI images

It doesn't matter, and never did in the first place. All large models (including SD) are already trained on other models output, since there's simply no possible way to have a high quality tagged dataset of the size they need. Smaller models are used to classify the data for larger ones, then the process is repeated for even larger models, with whatever manual data you have. Humans only select the data sources, and otherwise curate the entire bootstrapping process. This kind of curated training actually produces better results.

15. jjcon ◴[] No.33581076{3}[source]
> It's a sophisticated interpolation, not so different from linear interpolation: a*x + (1-a)*y

These algorithms are specifically non-linear a far cry from ‘linear interpolation’ unless you want to water down the meaning of interpolation to be so generic it loses its meaning.

Having said all that - the sophistication of the algorithm is beyond the point here as long as what they are generating is substantially transformative (which >99% of the possible outputs are legally speaking).

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16. boredhedgehog ◴[] No.33581192[source]
> A camera is possible without the artists it replaces.

Is it? Or does the idea of a photo presuppose the painting? Could a camera have been invented by someone not looking at the world through the lens of a very particular tradition of art?

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17. moritzwarhier ◴[] No.33581538{3}[source]
A camera does not use existing paintings to create an image, it captures light.

And the "idea" of a frozen, materialized, two dimensional projection of what we see with our eyes, aka an image, transcends cultures and tools.

It does not depend on a particular tradition of art. You might argue that it depends on human culture, but that's a different thing.

Also, making a portrait photo does not need concrete instances of portrait paintings.

So I don't really follow your argument.

Also, yes, I'd say the invention if the camera could be motivated by reasons that have nothing to do with art at all (documenting the physical world). The lines get blurry depending on how you define "art".

But none of that implies that the invention of the camera depends on recycling prior art.

An image AI is incapable of depicting something that's entirely missing from its training data.

18. Garlef ◴[] No.33581723[source]
Could you not argue that most automations do not compensate those who developed that what is being automated?
19. creata ◴[] No.33581727{4}[source]
> water down the meaning of interpolation to be so generic it loses its meaning.

"Interpolation" was always a very generic word.

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20. Garlef ◴[] No.33581731{4}[source]
Lovely perspective. Esp. the first point.
21. underwater ◴[] No.33581882{4}[source]
People didn't smile in painted portraits because of cultural norms. A smile was perceived as looking foolish (or drunk). Early photography followed this lead.

A quote attributed to Mark Twain says “A photograph is a most important document, and there is nothing more damning to go down to posterity than a silly, foolish smile caught and fixed forever.“

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22. antifa ◴[] No.33583500[source]
What they like even less is being left behind via top-down enforced austerity in an economy of rapidly increasing inequality _after_ their mostly modest and ethical profession suddenly stops existing.
23. jjcon ◴[] No.33586077{5}[source]
If it is interpolation what kind of interpolation is it? Linear? Bilinear? Nearest Neighbor? Lanczos? No… because it isn’t and doesn’t resemble anything close to interpolation.

They even gave a linear equation in their example… again not even close. If we can call what these algorithms do interpolation - we can call what humans do interpolation too - it makes the word that meaningless

24. Daub ◴[] No.33590396{5}[source]
> People didn't smile in painted portraits because of cultural norms. A smile was perceived as looking foolish (or drunk). Early photography followed this lead

Not sure I would agree with that. Granted there may be a cultural component in the mix somewhere, but as someone who has painted from observation many faces, the fugitive nature of a smile presents almost insurmountable problems. Franz Hals (below) could do it because he painted insanely quickly.

https://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/a/hals-frans/thelaughin...

https://images.prismic.io/barnebys/a671f804-2e03-4541-afa0-9...

https://az333960.vo.msecnd.net/images-9/laughing-boy-frans-h...

They key issue is that a smile involves the eyes as much as the face. This cannot be faked without the frozen effect: example:

https://images7.alphacoders.com/694/694598.jpg

As for photography, the long exposures of early photography made the capture of anything fugitive an impossibility. However, the moment that snapshot photography was invented (Kodaks Box Brownie) smiles were being photographed all the time.