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Riot is now Element

(element.io)
550 points J_tt | 46 comments | 15 Jul 20 07:07 UTC | HN request time: 1.005s | source | bottom
1. dividedbyzero ◴[15 Jul 20 07:49 UTC] No.23842409[source]▶
That's been long overdue and will hopefully help Matrix make inroads into more conservative organizations; I believe the tech is really promising. It's a definite liability, trying to introduce people to Matrix, when the de-facto default client's name evokes all kinds of unhelpful associations – it doesn't sound like work at all and it does sound like gamers, toys, apparently even like a far-left political organisation. Element should be fine for everyone.
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2. neiljohnson ◴[15 Jul 20 07:56 UTC] No.23842444[source]▶
Glad you like it, the original idea was to think of Riot in terms of a 'Riot of Colour', though in practice it can be interpreted in lots of different ways.

We think Element has much broader appeal and really like the association with being the smallest indivisible unit.

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3. raxxorrax ◴[15 Jul 20 08:09 UTC] No.23842526[source]▶
Even if these "toys" were instrumental in driving technological progress, it makes sense to rename it for "conservative" organisations. Some say the smarter ones should give in, so just make it easy to swallow.

Although I don't see widespread adoption yet if Matrix bridges aren't implemented by the common household names. Conservative organisations use solutions from Apple or Microsoft. There is no deeper thought behind it.

That said, I think they just did it because of trademark issues. Private users are probably converted by their environment and probably don't think too much about the name.

replies(1): >>23842586 #
4. neiljohnson ◴[15 Jul 20 08:21 UTC] No.23842586[source]▶
Worth pointing out that some of the largest proponents of Matrix today are governments and civic institutions. The federated nature and ability to self host are really important to them.

The French government's installation has been in the public domain for sometime (https://matrix.org/blog/2018/04/26/matrix-and-riot-confirmed...)

More recently the German Education authority has announced that it will roll out a 500K user installation - this is the world’s largest-ever single contract for a collaborative software service (https://sifted.eu/articles/element-germany-deal/)

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5. raxxorrax ◴[15 Jul 20 08:42 UTC] No.23842708{3}[source]▶
True. An important first step. Glad to see that there is a conscious effort now. Hope Matrix succeds and sees widespread applications.
6. mytailorisrich ◴[15 Jul 20 08:47 UTC] No.23842737[source]▶
If I'm an organisation, e.g. a company, I don't want end-to-end encryption, I want to make sure I have access to all messages within the company and between employees.

So I'm not sure a tool that is encrypted end-to-end will be that appealing to me not matter the name unless there is a feature around that.

On the other hand, individuals who are savvy enough to look for such a tool may not worry too much about the name.

replies(1): >>23842844 #
7. srg0 ◴[15 Jul 20 08:59 UTC] No.23842798[source]▶
looking at you, git
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8. oehtXRwMkIs ◴[15 Jul 20 09:04 UTC] No.23842833[source]▶
funny thing about git is as a non-Brit, I thought for the longest time it was a made up word.
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9. neiljohnson ◴[15 Jul 20 09:07 UTC] No.23842844[source]▶
Element is end to end encrypted by default for private rooms and 1:1 chats, but the Matrix protocol does not mandate the use of end to end encryption since it doesn't make sense for some use cases, particularly for public world readable rooms and IoT application.

There are organisations today that use Element without e2ee, though in practice we find that most see e2ee as a plus point - especially with the recent UX improvements (https://element.io/blog/e2e-encryption-by-default-cross-sign...).

replies(1): >>23842885 #
10. starfallg ◴[15 Jul 20 09:08 UTC] No.23842846[source]▶
Does the name really inhibit adoption in a corporate environment that much, or is it just an excuse people put down in questionnaires?

Plenty of popular tools with questionable names. Splunk and slack comes to mind.

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11. mytailorisrich ◴[15 Jul 20 09:16 UTC] No.23842885{3}[source]▶
Good to know that it can be used without e2e encryption.

I don't see e2e as a plus point in a corporate environment because there is always a need to retrieve communications in some cases (which has nothing to do with UX).

replies(1): >>23842913 #
12. numpad0 ◴[15 Jul 20 09:16 UTC] No.23842886[source]▶
Real developer™ use something called Subversion anyway
13. Barrin92 ◴[15 Jul 20 09:16 UTC] No.23842887[source]▶
purely anecdotal but I've seen it twice that a piece of software was rejected because of a weird name.

Probably doesn't happen often, but there's people when they have a few alternatives they'll just throw the strange sounding one out first.

14. sanqui ◴[15 Jul 20 09:21 UTC] No.23842910[source]▶
I'd think I'm far from the only one who finds CockroachDB simply repulsive merely for its name.
replies(1): >>23842938 #
15. zanny ◴[15 Jul 20 09:21 UTC] No.23842913{4}[source]▶
Since you run the matrix server in that environment you can add a hook for a master corporate account to be auto included in every room made. It would then be privy to any encryption keys.
16. Certhas ◴[15 Jul 20 09:24 UTC] No.23842929[source]▶
This comment section is remarkable. If the name change is perceived to be in order to be welcoming to corporate, nobody has a problem with that. Imagine if the name change was perceived to be in order to be more welcoming to underrepresented people. We would have endless discussions about pc culture, and how the name is not bad at all, etc...
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17. sam_goody ◴[15 Jul 20 09:25 UTC] No.23842938{3}[source]▶
OT, but I refer to it as RoachDB and that helps a lot.

Roach could be a last name, or a type of chocolate...

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18. szquadri ◴[15 Jul 20 09:42 UTC] No.23843042[source]▶
I can vouch that I avoided deploying it in corp environments due to the questionable name. "Element" is fine and is generic just like "Matrix". So name really does matter (specially in formal/corporate environments).
replies(1): >>23843209 #
19. robalni ◴[15 Jul 20 09:44 UTC] No.23843058[source]▶
Do you have an example of when a name change has generated such discussions?
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20. vultour ◴[15 Jul 20 09:48 UTC] No.23843085{4}[source]▶
Roach is often used as a synonym for cockroach
21. choward ◴[15 Jul 20 10:06 UTC] No.23843194[source]▶
I've honestly never heard it used that way. I have no idea what that means. Is it a British thing? I've only ever heard it used one way.
replies(1): >>23843270 #
22. shock ◴[15 Jul 20 10:08 UTC] No.23843209{3}[source]▶
Your comment doesn't mean much if your company is on Slack. The "Slack" name can present issues for other people just like "Riot" has presented for you.
replies(1): >>23843733 #
23. uryga ◴[15 Jul 20 10:12 UTC] No.23843238{3}[source]▶
recent thing with github and renaming "master"
24. AdmiralGinge ◴[15 Jul 20 10:17 UTC] No.23843270{3}[source]▶
British here, I've definitely heard it used that way but it's not the first thing that comes to mind.
replies(1): >>23848178 #
25. ◴[15 Jul 20 10:21 UTC] No.23843295{3}[source]▶
26. bartread ◴[15 Jul 20 10:41 UTC] No.23843422[source]▶
I've always wondered about that one too. I mean naming is a minefield, but using a name that's well known to be at least mildly offensive in a particular dialect of English is probably something I would have chosen to avoid. I suppose at least they didn't call it "prck", "twt", or "cnt". One has to be grateful for small mercies.
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27. rv-de ◴[15 Jul 20 10:56 UTC] No.23843528[source]▶
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/riot+of+colours

Still doesn't make any sense ...

28. jojobas ◴[15 Jul 20 11:01 UTC] No.23843556{3}[source]▶
>The federated nature and ability to self host are really important to them.

It's important to everyone, whether they realize it or not.

replies(1): >>23846790 #
29. ◴[15 Jul 20 11:19 UTC] No.23843666[source]▶
30. istjohn ◴[15 Jul 20 11:28 UTC] No.23843725[source]▶
For any other confused Americans:

Git is a term of insult with origins in English denoting an unpleasant, silly, incompetent, annoying, senile, elderly or childish person. As a mild oath it is roughly on a par with prat and marginally less pejorative than berk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)

replies(1): >>23845064 #
31. lozf ◴[15 Jul 20 11:29 UTC] No.23843733{4}[source]▶
Yes, even in 2016 I had non-techies think that an IM chat designed for the workplace called "Slack" was some sort of joke.
32. midasz ◴[15 Jul 20 11:46 UTC] No.23843850{4}[source]▶
Or a basically finished joint
33. Xenoamorphous ◴[15 Jul 20 12:05 UTC] No.23844002{3}[source]▶
I thought so too (not a native English speaker, had never seen that word before) until I read a quote from Linus saying that he likes to name his projects after himself.
34. rayhem_ ◴[15 Jul 20 13:02 UTC] No.23844550{3}[source]▶
All words are made up words.
35. Karunamon ◴[15 Jul 20 13:11 UTC] No.23844667[source]▶
? Seems like there's plenty of disagreement on the name here.
36. athenot ◴[15 Jul 20 13:41 UTC] No.23845064{3}[source]▶
One of the best pranks I've seen is people getting endorsed for git on LinkedIn, from coworkers who don't think quite so high of them as pretended during office hours.
replies(1): >>23845739 #
37. dmos62 ◴[15 Jul 20 14:19 UTC] No.23845541[source]▶
I'm just now understanding that moving away from the name Riot was to distance it from recent US riots in mental space.
38. dmos62 ◴[15 Jul 20 14:35 UTC] No.23845739{4}[source]▶
> coworkers who don't think quite so high of them as pretended during office hours

Sounds malicious.

39. ATsch ◴[15 Jul 20 15:02 UTC] No.23846154[source]▶
Makes sense, considering HN has plenty of people from corporations and more or less no people from marginalized groups.
40. ATsch ◴[15 Jul 20 15:05 UTC] No.23846206{3}[source]▶
To my knowledge these governments have so far all deployed their own forks with their own branding and features.
41. dividedbyzero ◴[15 Jul 20 15:39 UTC] No.23846790{4}[source]▶
And if not already, then it is definitely becoming so.
42. pdabbadabba ◴[15 Jul 20 17:09 UTC] No.23848178{4}[source]▶
American here. It's not just a British thing, but it's definitely not a very common use of the word.

I think "riot of color," however, is just one instance of a particular, positive use of the word "riot." More broadly, "riot" can mean something like "a really fun thing" (as in "Let's hang out with that guy, he's a riot!"). But I'm not surprised that Element/Riot found that this was not the primary association that folks were making.

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43. WorldMaker ◴[15 Jul 20 17:23 UTC] No.23848387{5}[source]▶
In the previous post comments there was an interesting debate on the etymology of the word riot. It's a French borrow in the Middle English era, so its etymology is at best "complicated". The "riot of color" idiom was one of the first written usages in English indeed predating the use of the term for violence, but the French word was "debate/quarrel" so it's hard to rule out that violence or negative connotations weren't always hand in hand in the metaphor underlying "riot of color".
44. WorldMaker ◴[15 Jul 20 17:29 UTC] No.23848500{3}[source]▶
From what I recall it was intentional on part of the early git team. They did want to make it clear it was a "dumb" VCS compared to work going on in some of the smarter ones such as darcs. git has always had something of the Unix "worse is better" philosophy at its core, and it is amusing it chose to wear that so much on its sleeve that it took that as a name.
45. tripzilch ◴[16 Jul 20 12:16 UTC] No.23858190{3}[source]▶
Is "twat" worse than "git"? I thought it was relatively mild as well
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46. bartread ◴[16 Jul 20 17:32 UTC] No.23861406{4}[source]▶
I think you'd get different answers from different people but you can really put your back into the UK pronunciation of "twat" to make it sound really venomous, as opposed to the much more innocuous "twot" pronunciation of the US. That tends to make it more offensive. "Git" just doesn't have quite the same impact.