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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

(www.nytimes.com)
623 points franzb | 40 comments | 14 Nov 15 00:25 UTC | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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djfm ◴[14 Nov 15 01:12 UTC] No.10563795[source]▶
I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that people can be proud of having killed a hundred innocents. I'm not afraid, I'm just terribly sad. Please stop this pointless killing.
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1. Fluid_Mechanics ◴[14 Nov 15 01:25 UTC] No.10563860[source]▶
If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage.

Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue.

Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they hate us".

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2. 13thLetter ◴[14 Nov 15 01:26 UTC] No.10563865[source]▶
Maaaaaaaybe wait until the bodies have cooled before you start searching for a way to blame the Jews? :(
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3. Fluid_Mechanics ◴[14 Nov 15 01:29 UTC] No.10563881[source]▶
This has nothing to do with blaming the Jews. The reason for all this carnage is obvious and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.
replies(2): >>10563908 #>>10564924 #
4. littletimmy ◴[14 Nov 15 01:35 UTC] No.10563904[source]▶
Israel = nation state. Jews = ethno-religious group.

Completely different.

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5. roosterjm2k2 ◴[14 Nov 15 01:35 UTC] No.10563908{3}[source]▶
You're right... but its not the reason, its the excuse.

And a weak one.

Killing civilians doesn't work, and it never has... terrorism never wins... unless your a huge nation like the USA, then it wins...

6. ◴[14 Nov 15 01:49 UTC] No.10563959[source]▶
7. ◴[14 Nov 15 04:13 UTC] No.10564420[source]▶
8. ofirnachum ◴[14 Nov 15 05:08 UTC] No.10564550[source]▶
Assuming that the majority of the problem will go away with the end of the support of Israel is very wishful thinking. There are many complex causes of events like this and blaming Israel is pure scapegoating.
replies(1): >>10564848 #
9. acjohnson55 ◴[14 Nov 15 05:08 UTC] No.10564552{3}[source]▶
Distinct concepts? Sure. But completely different is an exaggeration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_Democratic_State

replies(1): >>10564725 #
10. dbcooper ◴[14 Nov 15 05:25 UTC] No.10564593[source]▶
Are you saying that France is a big supporter of Israel?
11. littletimmy ◴[14 Nov 15 06:23 UTC] No.10564725{4}[source]▶
Look, I'm sure Israel wants to be a jewish state, just like Pakistan wants to be an Islamic state and some people want the US to be a Christian state. That doesn't mean much except politics. The fact of the matter is that nation states are very different beasts from ethno-religious groups.
12. gozo ◴[14 Nov 15 07:22 UTC] No.10564848[source]▶
I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that Isreal do, like settlements, that is not good for the security of EU/US.
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13. IvanDenisovich ◴[14 Nov 15 07:56 UTC] No.10564899[source]▶
So far Israel hasn't featured high on Isis' agenda, and there have been no significant isis attacks on Israeli targets. This is despite the fact that they almost share a border. Neither are Palestinians' rights a top priority for isis. What's left of the the residents of Yarmouk refugee camp will testify to that. In short, Isis is not about israel vs palestine, it's about a deeper social/religious clash of ideas. So maybe before you try to ratonalize isis, you actually read up on their core beliefs. You might find out that this is one murderous organization whose actions you can't blame on israel.
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14. mercurial ◴[14 Nov 15 08:07 UTC] No.10564913[source]▶
One of the attackers was heard saying it was about Syria. This isn't about Israel at all.
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15. chroma ◴[14 Nov 15 08:13 UTC] No.10564924{3}[source]▶
Obvious? I'm still not following. I can't figure out how somebody goes from, "The US is responsible for the death and suffering of my countrymen." to "Let's kill lots of French civilians."
16. warsheep ◴[14 Nov 15 08:20 UTC] No.10564937{3}[source]▶
A lot of "may" and "might" in your reply, and absolutely no facts. The facts are that on ISIS' agenda, fighting Palestinian groups such as Hamas has a higher priority than fighting Israel [1][2], yet people in this thread still manage to "lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible, as if these people are incapable of independent thought.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-...

[2] http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-st...

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17. ◴[14 Nov 15 08:32 UTC] No.10564960{3}[source]▶
18. threeseed ◴[14 Nov 15 08:34 UTC] No.10564964[source]▶
Exactly right. The plight of the Palestinians is a significant recruiting tool but that's all it is. ISIS has no plans to liberate them.

The purpose of ISIS is exactly what they say it is. To establish their own state governed by hard-right Islamic ideals. And the reason they have so much support is largely driven from the perceived persecution of Muslims worldwide e.g. xenophobia in Western countries, drone strikes on innocent civilians etc.

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19. threeseed ◴[14 Nov 15 08:37 UTC] No.10564972{4}[source]▶
> lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible.

This argument is so stupid.

Everyone is blaming the people responsible. That's a given. The reason people are blaming Israel and the US is because they are indirectly responsible since their actions are used as recruitment tools.

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20. akshatpradhan ◴[14 Nov 15 08:46 UTC] No.10564997{5}[source]▶
They clearly use scapegoats to push forward with their agenda. Didn't Al-Qaeda declare Jihad on India? That's a scapegoat. India has nothing to do with them, but they've declared Jihad. France has nothing to do with them, but they bombed her citizens.
21. warsheep ◴[14 Nov 15 08:54 UTC] No.10565010{5}[source]▶
The US, France, and other European countries I can actually understand, since these countries performed military operations in Iraq and/or Syria, but I'll be very surprised if Israel is used as a recruiting tool. If you have some sources implying this I'm interested in reading them!
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22. oh_sigh ◴[14 Nov 15 09:07 UTC] No.10565037[source]▶
How do you know? Imagine another 700m people even poorer than they are now. That might breed extremism I'm sure western meddling can explain some of the extremist responses, but I'm not sure it can explain all of them.
replies(1): >>10565952 #
23. threeseed ◴[14 Nov 15 09:09 UTC] No.10565044{6}[source]▶
Why would you be surprised Israel's persecution of the Palestinians would be a recruiting tool ? It's a major issue for almost every Muslim worldwide. ISIS have absolutely been recruiting on the back of this and I've seen recruits from Australia even mention it when interviewed.

There are plenty of examples: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-manual-al-qaeda-and-no... http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/king-of-jordan-isis-used-gaza-...

replies(1): >>10565083 #
24. ◴[14 Nov 15 09:25 UTC] No.10565073{6}[source]▶
25. warsheep ◴[14 Nov 15 09:31 UTC] No.10565083{7}[source]▶
Interesting articles, thanks!
26. bjourne ◴[14 Nov 15 10:00 UTC] No.10565143[source]▶
We had a suicide bomber in Sweden who blew himself up because he was angry that the government didn't arrest Lars Vilks, an artist who had made some drawings of Muhammed which he thought was offensive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_c...).

Swedish Muslim terrorists also tried to create a massacre at Jyllandsposten because of their drawings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...).

These terrorists were born and raised in Sweden, had a better standard of living than me, studied engineering in university and had nothing to complain about. Sweden doesn't attack any countries, we love Palestine and dislike Israel (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-official...) and we shelter 80-100,000 Muslim refugees/year. What should we do exactly? Jail all cartoonists and make it a crime to insult Islam?

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27. olavk ◴[14 Nov 15 10:10 UTC] No.10565172[source]▶
It is amazing how many in this thread who make declarations about the underlying political causes for this tragedy. As far as I know, no group have yet claimed responsibilities and very little is known about the perpetrators at this point. Theories have been put forth that they are either IS or al-Queda, two groups with quite different history and agenda. And it is still not confirmed it is either. So any attempt at political explanation at this point is pure knee-jerk.
replies(1): >>10565396 #
28. jamesblonde ◴[14 Nov 15 10:10 UTC] No.10565173[source]▶
Hard to know how people will react here in Sweden. It's an awful tragedy. I suspect it will lead to large changes in how Europe works, probably not for the better. Just as happened post September 11.
29. gozo ◴[14 Nov 15 10:50 UTC] No.10565245{4}[source]▶
People who have historically done these kinds of act don't care about IS nor are they devote Muslims. They care about support for Israel because it is seen as a further proof of the west mistreating Muslims. It's not about blaming Israel, it's about western governments doing things like the french did and first celebrating free speech after Charlie Hebdo, just to ban anti-Israeli demonstrations. That's a great recruiting tool to use on young person in a suburb already feeling mistreated by the government.
30. gozo ◴[14 Nov 15 11:11 UTC] No.10565287[source]▶
Sweden hasn't been as affected as other countries. Instability will always spill over from conflicts, there's nothing special about this era. RAF occupied the West German embassy in Stockholm in 1975 and planned to kidnap a Swedish politician. To some extent it's the same for France, they didn't invade Iraq, created Guantanamo or other things to escalate the conflict yet they are targeted. Maybe because they have a lot of dealings in the Middle East or to please IS supporters or it's just convenient. I'm sure people will speculate a lot about this in the coming months.
replies(1): >>10565374 #
31. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 11:57 UTC] No.10565374{3}[source]▶
The case of a 'connection' for France is much easier to establish than for Sweden.
32. alfapla ◴[14 Nov 15 12:01 UTC] No.10565383[source]▶
Actually, both Israel and Palestines are a bit befuddled that their eternal little conflict has lost a good deal of importance to the rest of the world in view of the bigger events in the Mideast. Which probably is a good thing, since both parties were acting like the spoilt children of global attention.
33. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 12:03 UTC] No.10565390{3}[source]▶
I'm not too worried about ISIS running up against Israel, but I'm very worried about the connection between ISIS and Pakistan.
replies(1): >>10565711 #
34. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 12:07 UTC] No.10565396[source]▶
"Paris attacks: Islamic State says killings were response to Syria strikes"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terr...

35. mercurial ◴[14 Nov 15 14:09 UTC] No.10565711{4}[source]▶
Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?
replies(1): >>10565724 #
36. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 14:16 UTC] No.10565724{5}[source]▶
http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say...

And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.

replies(1): >>10565818 #
37. mercurial ◴[14 Nov 15 14:44 UTC] No.10565818{6}[source]▶
Didn't know about that. Now, that's not reassuring, considering that they make the child-killing Talibans look like moderates...
replies(1): >>10565864 #
38. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 14:58 UTC] No.10565864{7}[source]▶
Yes. It's a huge problem, and it looks like it is getting larger by the day.
39. iofj ◴[14 Nov 15 15:29 UTC] No.10565952[source]▶
Looking at those arrested for joining ISIS here in my home country I don't know how you can say that. They were not poor, they were not excluded or treated in a racist manner at all. And there are very little lines between them, men and women, from different parts of the country, from different backgrounds (semi-rural versus rural, native/non-native, dutch, french, english-speaking, rich/middle class (I'd say no poor people so far), ...).

About the only link between the ISIS members from Western Europe is that they're muslims. Even that is "not 100%" true, since there are also Christians and some Kurds traveling to Syria/Iraq. The examples of that I know went there to help, of course (medically in 2 cases, sort of an amateur doctors without borders, mostly because neither doctors without borders, nor the red cross risk sending people there, but they did have family there). Of course we don't know that's all they did. At least they're claiming to provide medical help, none of the muslims who got caught going to Syria ever even bothered to say they were going for any reason other than fighting, and some saying they went off for killing and some shit about allah.

This is a convicted ISIS terrorist that went off to kill people and came back, talking to a reporter of the public service about how and why : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKg2UsfnxHc

Claiming that people like this are poor or treated badly by the country they were born into is moronic.

Meanwhile the tensions between (sunni) muslims and everybody, literally everybody else are rising ever more. Fights and crimes against the "natives", and every other minority, from the Jews of Antwerp to the Turks of Molenbeek (there is a large (sometimes very) atheist contingent amongst Turks).

40. Reef ◴[14 Nov 15 22:08 UTC] No.10567479[source]▶
What one of them allegedly shouted, may not be a proof that the whole thing was about Syria.