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386 points italophil | 36 comments | | HN request time: 0.298s | source | bottom
1. praptak ◴[] No.46228088[source]
Calibri was supposedly easier to read by people with disabilities. While this itself is debatable, that's not the reasoning behind the font switch. The mere attempt at making life easier for disadvantaged people is labeled DEI and as such cannot be tolerated by this administration.
replies(6): >>46228261 #>>46228310 #>>46228352 #>>46229561 #>>46229633 #>>46229638 #
2. midnitewarrior ◴[] No.46228261[source]
I don't think that much thought went into it. The change was initiated by the department's DEIA ("A" for Accessibility) office. Anything that office did was a priority for this administration.

Keep in mind that the transgenic mouse breeding program used to make lab mice for research got defined because the President claimed Democrats were so woke they were funding "trans" mice research.

Half of what they are doing is virtue signalling and posturing without any real understanding of what they are doing.

replies(4): >>46228316 #>>46228358 #>>46228478 #>>46228535 #
3. t0lo ◴[] No.46228310[source]
Nope- times new roman just looks better.
4. t0lo ◴[] No.46228316[source]
I listened to the economist podcast on that- hilarious in the worst way- was leading harvard research
5. logifail ◴[] No.46228352[source]
> Calibri was supposedly easier to read by people with disabilities

I'd love to know how that was determined. Given that:

"If different fonts are best for different people, you might imagine that the solution to the fonts problem would be a preference setting to allow each user to select the font that’s best for them.

This solution will not work, for two reasons. First, previous research on user-interface customization has found that most users don’t use preference settings, but simply make do with the default.

Second, and worse, users don’t know what’s best for them, so they can’t choose the best font, even if they were given the option to customize their fonts. In this study, participants read 14% faster in their fastest font (314 WPM, on average) compared to their most preferred font (275 WPM, on average)"

https://www.nngroup.com/articles/best-font-for-online-readin...

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6. kgwgk ◴[] No.46228358[source]
The funny thing is that they were indeed funding “trans” mice research:

> To understand the effects of feminizing sex hormone therapy on vaccination, we propose to develop a mouse model of gender-affirming hormone therapy, assess its relevance to human medicine through singe-cell transcriptome studies, and test the immune responses of “cis” vs. “trans” mice to a HIV vaccine.

https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/10849830#descriptio...

replies(1): >>46232349 #
7. userbinator ◴[] No.46228411[source]
In this study, participants read 14% faster in their fastest font (314 WPM, on average) compared to their most preferred font (275 WPM, on average)"

That may be a case of "I hate reading this font so much I don't want to do more than skim over the text."

8. vkou ◴[] No.46228478[source]
More than half. Almost everything they do is virtue signaling.
9. rdiddly ◴[] No.46228535[source]
All true except the fact that it's not virtue that they're signaling.
replies(2): >>46228581 #>>46229646 #
10. dragonwriter ◴[] No.46228561[source]
> Second, and worse, users don’t know what’s best for them, so they can’t choose the best font, even if they were given the option to customize their fonts. In this study, participants read 14% faster in their fastest font (314 WPM, on average) compared to their most preferred font (275 WPM, on average)"

What you actually want to compare speed in the most preferred font to, to show that individual choice is or is not better than one-size-fits-all dictate, is speed in the font that would be chosen as the universal choice by whichever mechanism would be used (to show it is universally better, show that there is no universal font choice that would lead to the average user being faster than with their preferred font.)

All comparing each individual's preferred font to each individual's fastest is showing that an individualized test-based optimized font choice is better for reading speed than individual preference font choice, which I guess is interesting if you are committed to individualized choices, but not if the entire question is whether individual or centralized choices are superior.

replies(2): >>46229178 #>>46230053 #
11. tstrimple ◴[] No.46228581{3}[source]
Virtue signaling is for liberals. Conservatives prefer shitty human signaling. Eventually folks will take them for their word I hope.
12. logifail ◴[] No.46229178{3}[source]
> What you actually want to compare [..]

The (ex-)scientist in me is looking for a controlled study, ideally published in a peer reviewed journal, looking at - how can I put this - actual data.

60s of Googling gave me this

The effect of a specialized dyslexia font, OpenDyslexic, on reading rate and accuracy https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5629233/

"A single-subject alternating treatment design was used to investigate the extent to which a specialized dyslexia font, OpenDyslexic, impacted reading rate or accuracy compared to two commonly used fonts when used with elementary students identified as having dyslexia. OpenDyslexic was compared to Arial and Times New Roman in three reading tasks: (a) letter naming, (b) word reading, and (c) nonsense word reading. Data were analyzed through visual analysis and improvement rate difference, a nonparametric measure of nonoverlap for comparing treatments. Results from this alternating treatment experiment show no improvement in reading rate or accuracy for individual students with dyslexia, as well as the group as a whole. While some students commented that the font was “new” or “different”, none of the participants reported preferring to read material presented in that font. These results indicate there may be no benefit for translating print materials to this font."

Advocacy for people with disabilities is important, but actual data may be even more important.

13. unsupp0rted ◴[] No.46229561[source]
More charitably, the signaling could be: “keep the government as small as possible, but no smaller than that”, i.e. use things that basically mostly work and quit expending resources addressing every edge case, particularly when it’s performative (slight font variations) rather than obvious (a ramp to get into a public building)
replies(2): >>46230248 #>>46230849 #
14. beowulfey ◴[] No.46229633[source]
I would have thought the change to Calibri was simply because office uses it as the default font now
replies(1): >>46234079 #
15. journal ◴[] No.46229638[source]
by that logic if we help them see why don't we help them understand as well?
16. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.46229646{3}[source]
Cruelty signalling?
replies(1): >>46229949 #
17. oneeyedpigeon ◴[] No.46229949{4}[source]
I prefer "ideology signalling" so that it's neutral and we can use it to apply to both sides.
replies(2): >>46231294 #>>46232309 #
18. adrian_b ◴[] No.46230053{3}[source]
A meaningful testing of the differences between fonts is greatly complicated by the effect of the familiarity with the tested fonts.

The differences between individuals which perform better with different fonts may have nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities of the fonts but may be determined only by the previous experience of the tested subjects with the tested fonts or with other fonts that are very similar to the tested fonts.

Only if you measure reading speed differences between fonts with which the tested subjects are very familiar, e.g. by having read or written a variety of texts for one year or more, you can conclude that the speed differences may be caused by features of the font, and if the optimal fonts are different between users, then this is a real effect.

There are many fonts that have some characters which are not distinctive enough, so they have only subtle differences. When you read texts with such fonts you may confuse such characters frequently and deduce which is the correct character only from the context, causing you to linger over a word, but after reading many texts you may perceive automatically the inconspicuous differences between characters and read them correctly without confusions, at a higher speed.

Many older people, who have read great amounts of printed books, find the serif typefaces more legible, because these have been traditionally preferred in book texts. On the other hand, many younger people, whose reading experience has been provided mainly by computer/phone screens, where sans-serif fonts are preferred because of the low resolution of the screens, find sans-serif fonts more legible. This is clearly caused only by the familiarity with the tested fonts and does not provide information about the intrinsic qualities of the fonts.

Moreover, the resolution of most displays, even that of most 4k monitors, remains much lower than the resolution of printed paper and there are many classic typefaces that are poorly rendered on most computer monitors. To compare the legibility of the typefaces, one should use only very good monitors, so that some typefaces should not be handicapped. Otherwise, one should label the study as a study of the legibility as constrained by a certain display resolution. At low enough display resolutions, the fonts designed especially to avoid confusions between characters, like many of the fonts intended for programming, should outperform any others, while at high display resolutions the results may be very different.

replies(2): >>46232619 #>>46236732 #
19. oblio ◴[] No.46230248[source]
Microsoft Office (and Windows) changed the default font more than a decade ago.

Changing it back is the exact definition of performative work.

Edit: 19 years ago. Almost 2 decades ago!

20. Propelloni ◴[] No.46230849[source]
That's very charitable--especially considering that leaving the font alone in the first place would have been the smaller option.

And don't get me started about the current meddling of the executive in my private life? I haven't had a more intrusive administration since living in Singapore.

21. watwut ◴[] No.46231294{5}[source]
I prefer cruelty signaling, because there is profound difference between the impact of the two on the world. Insisting on naming things so that "bad thing" and "good thing" are undistinguishable is not neutral, it is biased and favors bad actors.
replies(2): >>46232376 #>>46232859 #
22. buellerbueller ◴[] No.46232309{5}[source]
"Virtue signaling" still works because the actor indeed believes they are being virtuous.
replies(1): >>46233250 #
23. adrian_b ◴[] No.46232619{4}[source]
I have written the above posting before reading the complete research paper linked by the previous poster.

After reading the complete paper, I have seen that the study is much worse than I had supposed based on its abstract.

This study is typical for the font legibility studies made by people without knowledge about typography. I find annoying that such studies are very frequent. Whoever wants to make such a study should consult some specialist before doing another useless study.

The authors claim that a positive feature of their study is the great diversity of fonts that they have tested: 16 fonts.

This claim is very false. All their fonts are just very minor variations derived from 4 or 5 basic types and even those basic types have only few relevant differences from Times New Roman and Arial.

All their fonts do not include any valuable innovation in typeface design made after WWII, and most fonts do not include any valuable innovation made after WWI. They include a geometric sans serif, which is a kind of typeface created after WWI, but this kind of typefaces is intended for packaging and advertising, not for bulk text, so its inclusion has little importance for a legibility test.

I would classify all their 16 typefaces as "typefaces that suck badly" from the PoV of legibility and I would never use any of them in my documents.

Obviously, other people may not agree with my opinion, but they should be first exposed to more varied kinds of typefaces, before forming an opinion about what they prefer, and not only to the low-diversity typefaces bundled with Windows.

After WWII, even if the (bad in my opinion) sans-serif typefaces similar to Helvetica/Arial have remained the most widespread, which have too simplified letter shapes, so that many letters are ambiguous, there have appeared also other kinds of sans-serif typefaces, which combine some of the features of older sans-serif typefaces with some of the features of serif typefaces.

In my opinion, such hybrid typefaces (e.g. Palatino Sans, Optima Nova, FF Meta, TheSans, Trajan Sans) are better than both the classic serif typefaces and the classic sans-serif typefaces.

replies(1): >>46236600 #
24. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.46232638{7}[source]
Can you be specific about when this has happened?
25. watwut ◴[] No.46232728{7}[source]
1.) Overwhelming majority of political violence is by right wing.

2.) About Kirk specifically, liberals signaled "murder is bad" hard and frequently. Meanwhile Kirk himself signaled hatred.

3.) Meanwhile, Trump, Vance and Hegseth are constantly signaling "murder is good actually, if we are doing it" and "bullying is manly thing to do".

And that is exactly why it is userful to distinguish between "good thing signal" and "bad thing signal".

-----------

Conservatives have the option to signal good things. They make different choice.

replies(1): >>46234941 #
26. oneeyedpigeon ◴[] No.46232859{6}[source]
Sure, but that's immaterial to this context, which seeks an apolitical term for "says things they don't believe to curry favour".
replies(1): >>46238455 #
27. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.46233250{6}[source]
Since when is it a virtue to needlessly make things harder for some people?
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28. buellerbueller ◴[] No.46233934{7}[source]
You would need to ask that of someone who agrees with their font choices. I am only opining that they probably have $REASONS that they believe to be virtuous, and that by calling it virtue signaling, we point that out.

In my time as a righteous woke progressive, it eventually dawned on me that the other side was just as likely to believe in the righteousness of their cause, even if I couldn't understand their reasoning for it. It also dawned on me that the righteous folks on the other side of the divide likely see my beliefs and the reasoning by which I arrived at them as equally baffling.

If both sides believe fully in their righteousness, and see their opponents as wholly unreasonable, then we will end up in a non-religious holy war.

The only way to recover is for both sides to turn down their righteousness.

One small step to do that is to at least try to understand--without agreeing--why the people with whom you disagree hold their beliefs, which ones are inflexible and which are mutable.

replies(1): >>46234311 #
29. jvandonsel ◴[] No.46233959{7}[source]
Since January 2025.
30. behnamoh ◴[] No.46234079[source]
It was the default, now it's Aptos.
31. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.46234311{8}[source]
I just don't understand why it would be a virtue to deliberately make things harder for people. If the font was neutral in terms of being easy to read, then they would never have touched it. To my mind, they're making a "virtue" out of cruelty.

The problem is that we've seen what this kind of "righteousness" leads to (gas chambers, The Final Solution, World War II) and yet we're heading down the same road. There is no reasoning with Nazis.

32. rootusrootus ◴[] No.46234912{7}[source]
I cannot decide to what extent they see it that way. They certainly have entirely plausible virtuous reasoning for everything they do. Whether that is what they actually believe or not, I have no idea. It is hard to understand the point of view of someone who seems like causing pain is their only priority, and I prefer to think that only describes a small fraction of the people I disagree with politically.
33. rootusrootus ◴[] No.46234941{8}[source]
> About Kirk specifically

I notice that people are largely staying pretty quiet about the politics of the Kirk murder since shortly after it happened. I assume it is because, to the extent there is evidence of any ideology, groyper fits as well as leftist. Maybe better, even.

34. logifail ◴[] No.46236600{5}[source]
> the study is much worse than I had supposed

The purpose of that research study wasn't to survey the entire history of sans-serif design(!), it was to answer a fairly focused question: does OpenDyslexic improve reading for the population it claims(or claimed) to help?

The answer appears to be no.

35. logifail ◴[] No.46236732{4}[source]
> Moreover, the resolution of most displays, even that of most 4k monitors, remains much lower than the resolution of printed paper and there are many classic typefaces that are poorly rendered on most computer monitors. To compare the legibility of the typefaces, one should use only very good monitors, so that some typefaces should not be handicapped.

I'm afraid I assumed this particular part was a joke, but having read it several times I'm no longer sure ...

Assuming it's not a joke, what would you suggest to readers of content using any particular font who don't have "very good monitors"? What are they supposed to do instead? Not attempt to read the content? Save up for a better monitor?

36. watwut ◴[] No.46238455{7}[source]
It is material exactly here. The preference for "ideology signaling" comes from desire to frame both sides as the same. "Cruelty signaling" is very accurate descriptor. It does not even suggest right wing only thing, if someone on the left signals cruelty, they would engage in cruelty signaling. And if someone on the right performatively helps poor, they are engaging in virtue signaling.

The trouble is, if the things are called as what they are, you cant say "both sides are the same". Because one side is promoting cruelty and the other is not.

> says things they don't believe to curry favour

If you do not believe that trans people should be beating up, but say so to look manly to your boss, you still promoted beating of trans.