GrapheneOS is the only Android OS providing full security patches

The GrapheneOS obsession with picking a fight with everyone else is the most unfortunate part of the project.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

That's actually one of the best parts.

And the unreasonable man has decades of security research under his belt and somehow you know what's best?

I think they're agreeing with you

Not for the ones on the receiving end.

It doesn't seem to be the entire project, just one dev (afaik) that's quite outspoken and does make accusations that they don't always seem to back with evidence. Also insofar as the actual "product" remains completely untouched by any spats it shouldn't be a dealbreaker for anyone wanting to use GOS, but of course it isn't ideal to have any drama attached.

He never shows any evidence. Always accusing without any images/links. I love the project but it looks not normal.

When have they been wrong?

You're making libelous claims without evidence while falsely claiming that I'm doing it. This typically goes along with baseless claims that I'm insane, delusional, schizophrenic, etc. with links to extraordinarily dishonest content filled with obvious fabrications from a couple serial harassers. One of those serial harassers has an identity verified Kiwi Farms account and was the one who involved them in targeting me (kiwifarms . st/members/larossmann.132201/). We've provided a large amount of evidence. Here's the leader of Murena and /e/ linking to libelous harassment content towards me on a conspiracy site this week: https://archive.is/SWXPJ + https://archive.is/n4yTO and we have dozens more examples archived for him specifically. You target us with libelous claims, bullying and harassment then claim we're creating drama for defending ourselves from it and documenting it. If you want the 'drama' to stop then stop engaging in harassment.

Being on the receiving end of valid, technical criticism in response to making misleading claims about GrapheneOS for falsely marketing products is their own choice. It's certainly a lot nicer than being on the GrapheneOS team heavily targeted by libel, bullying and harassment from those groups. Here's a recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena linking to libelous harassment content on a conspiracy site, which links to a Kiwi Farms style character assassination video from someone friends with neo-nazis:

https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO

Check out the site for yourself. The linked video is plainly filled with extraordinarily dishonest claims that are widely disproven. Copperhead is losing the legal battle very badly and should end up paying our years of legal expenses soon. Other groups attacking us can look forward to similar losses in court when our attention moves to them. Years of libel, bullying and harassment has consequences.

Alright, didn't mean to make any libelous claims, it's just so it happens I never saw any evidence from your accusations. I already know these people are the worst, but it would be helpful if in any of your posts you would share some evidence like you did right now.

The attacks on GrapheneOS from Copperhead and their supporters including within other projects were not a fight we picked. You're pushing a false narrative in support of years of libel, bullying and harassment towards us. Your project's team has regularly engaged in very underhanded attacks on ours despite us never doing anything to you. We have archives of it.

Here's an example of what you support by the founder of Murena and /e/ who you support linking to libel and harassment on a neo-nazi conspiracy site (check out the site for yourself):

https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO

The video that's linked there is an extraordinarily dishonest character assassination video filled with very blatantly false claims. The person who posted the video is unsurprisingly friends with a bunch of neo-nazis. Copperhead failed in their attempt at filing a baseless lawsuit against us and is on track to pay years of our legal fees.

A typical approach you folks take is linking to Kiwi Farms adjacent harassment content based on fabricated stories and spin targeting myself and the rest of our team. One of the two main people orchestrating harassment towards us has an identity verified Kiwi Farms account and was the one who involved them in targeting me (kiwifarms . st/members/larossmann.132201/).

Where's the evidence for the accusations being made towards me? No need to answer: fabrications and spin on Kiwi Farms and 2 Kiwi Farms adjacent videos on YouTube, which are regularly referenced and directly linked to by people involved with multiple companies and open source projects in the space. Here's a very recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena once again linking to libelous harassment/bullying content, this time on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy site:

https://archive.is/SWXPJ

https://archive.is/n4yTO

He's done this many times before and has directly spread Kiwi Farms harassment content himself from his personal accounts along with using the /e/ and Murena accounts for similar attacks. We never picked any fight with /e/ or Murena, they spent years spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS to mislead people into buying highly insecure products and services. They're enraged by us countering that misinformation as we did here with verifiable, accurate information with third party sources you should read too from Divested Computing, Mike Kuketz, their own forum (sending sensitive data to OpenAI without consent and falsely claiming it's anonymized when questioned) and elsewhere:

https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand...

What is it you think hasn't been adequately proven?

Our chat rooms, forum, etc. are being endlessly raided with CSAM, gore and harassment towards our team. Our team is being swatted and threatened on a regular basis. We're having endless libel and bullying directed towards us including these baseless claims that we're insane. What the people attacking us can point to is that they think our replies debunking it and defending ourselves are too verbose which somehow makes us insane and delusional. Us banning people from the Techlore and /e/ communities raiding our rooms pretending to be users initially then attacking our team with harassment or posting CSAM is somehow us being toxic rather than those communities being toxic. It's not them being targeted with harassment. It's not them having fabricated stories spread about them.

It's you folks making accusations without evidence which simply reference a bunch of harassment content proving what we're saying is true. Linking to that harassment content proves people are doing it since most people can see it for what it is: a bunch of poorly made lies and misrepresentations to target someone with harassment.

Listing a bunch of projects I've not heard of and attacking me for "supporting" them is exactly the kind of behaviour I'm talking about :P

Don't know if you're replying to a wrong person but my point in the comment was about many of the tweets that get passed around include claims without links to any evidence. The recent tweets I've just seen from the top of my head were in relation to accusations of /e/os and Iode having government ties, but no evidence for that was linked in the tweets. A common person isn't going to go digging where that evidence has been presented if it isn't very clearly available, if at all. It may have a hassle to include it to every tweek, but the impression stands. Also never contested any of the harassment you have received.

>Your project's team has regularly engaged in very underhanded attacks on ours despite us never doing anything to you. We have archives of it.

What team are you talking about? JMP/Cheogram? This is the first I've heard of this.

> many of the tweets that get passed around

You're talking about people misrepresenting what we say and lying about it while ignoring the provided evidence. You shouldn't be basing what you think GrapheneOS says from people misrepresenting that as part of attacking it.

> claims without links to any evidence

You've provided no links to any evidence for your inaccurate claims about us.

> accusations of /e/os and Iode having government ties

What our project account actually said is that both have been attacking GrapheneOS with false claims about our project and team for many years, including the false narratives you're using. We've provided ample evidence of that and linked to a recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena supporting libel/harassment content from a neo-nazi site here. If you need that linked again:

https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO

We can provide dozens more examples of him supporting harassment content. We don't link spreading harassment content so we try to avoid linking to it like this. People who are hostile towards us won't actually apply any skepticism to it but rather will just spread it to try to harm us more. Why would we regularly help them with doing it?

It is a fact that /e/ is heavily government funded despite the fact that it exists to build products for their for-profit Murena company to sell.

https://www.projets-libres.org/en/podcast/e-os-a-degoogled-a...

> The European Union has subsidized us to the tune of several million for this project.

This is the same EU moving ahead with passing Chat Control. /e/, Murena and iodéOS are based in one of the countries most strongly supporting it with national law enforcement actively smearing GrapheneOS with inaccurate claims due to considering a reasonably secure device intolerable. The recent attack from Duval linked above was made in the direct context of these smears against GrapheneOS. Duval has himself used his personal account, /e/ project accounts and Murena company accounts to falsely claim GrapheneOS isn't a privacy project, isn't for regular people and is only for people to protect themselves from the state. He has directly played into trying to marginalize it and support attacks on it from the French state which supports his project. Do you deny this? We did not say they're working with the government. We said they're taking advantage of it and trying to leverage it to harm us similarly to their years of spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and supporting harassment towards our team to boost their extraordinarily insecure and non-private products/services. If you need third party sources on that, they're in https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand... and both Divested Computing + Mike Kuketz also cover iodéOS too, as do other experts.

> A common person isn't going to go digging where that evidence has been presented if it isn't very clearly available

Yet you believe inaccurate claims about us without evidence, including the ones you're propagating and making here. People engaging in these attacks linking to unsubstantiated claims and harassment material from each other is not evidence. A YouTube video with a self-contradictory and clearly dishonest monologue pretending to have references not showing any of what's claimed is not showing evidence. That apparently passes as evidence for you, but actual proof and things you can verify do not.

GrapheneOS did not attack you or your project. The same goes for the people you're supporting who chose to attack us for years and then feigned being victims when we finally began defending ourselves. We'll defend ourselves from the libel from your project too. You're choosing to make manipulative attacks on it without an actual basis to try to pile on the existing ones, while feigning ignorance of all of that. The chat logs show you aren't actually ignorant of it.

No one is attacking anyone. I feel like you're talking about someone else?

You came to this thread to promote an inaccurate narrative in support of the absolutely vile attacks on us. Meanwhile, we've never done anything to you or your project beyond promoting it as one of the available options. We stopped doing that a while ago due to attacks from yourself and other project members. We haven't responded to those attacks beyond not mentioning your project anymore and removing our many past links to it.

We have chat logs archives of your rooms which can be used to prove ongoing attacks by your project members towards GrapheneOS and our team. That includes voicing support for harassment content. Is it as severe as what we can show for many others? No, but it's enough. I'm not confusing you with someone else. I'm aware of who you are and what yourself and others you work with have said over the years.