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    323 points steerlabs | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0.02s | source | bottom
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    jqpabc123 ◴[] No.46153440[source]
    We are trying to fix probability with more probability. That is a losing game.

    Thanks for pointing out the elephant in the room with LLMs.

    The basic design is non-deterministic. Trying to extract "facts" or "truth" or "accuracy" is an exercise in futility.

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    1. steerlabs ◴[] No.46155764[source]
    Exactly. We treat them like databases, but they are hallucination machines.

    My thesis isn't that we can stop the hallucinating (non-determinism), but that we can bound it.

    If we wrap the generation in hard assertions (e.g., assert response.price > 0), we turn 'probability' into 'manageable software engineering.' The generation remains probabilistic, but the acceptance criteria becomes binary and deterministic.

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    2. jqpabc123 ◴[] No.46163076[source]
    but the acceptance criteria becomes binary and deterministic.

    Unfortunately, the use-case for AI is often where the acceptance criteria is not easily defined --- a matter of judgment. For example, "Does this patient have cancer?".

    In cases where the criteria can be easily and clearly stipulated, AI often isn't really required.

    replies(2): >>46185626 #>>46191846 #
    3. steerlabs ◴[] No.46185626[source]
    You're 100% right. For a "judgment" task like "Does this patient have cancer?", the final acceptance criteria must be a human expert. A purely deterministic verifier is impossible.

    My thesis is that even in those "fuzzy" workflows, the agent's process is full of small, deterministic sub-tasks that can and should be verified.

    For example, before the AI even attempts to analyze the X-ray for cancer, it must: 1/ Verify it has the correct patient file (PatientIDVerifier). 2/ Verify the image is a chest X-ray and not a brain MRI (ModalityVerifier). 3/ Verify the date of the scan is within the relevant timeframe (DateVerifier).

    These are "boring," deterministic checks. But a failure on any one of them makes the final "judgment" output completely useless.

    steer isn't designed to automate the final, high-stakes judgment. It's designed to automate the pre-flight checklist, ensuring the agent has the correct, factually grounded information before it even begins the complex reasoning task. It's about reducing the "unforced errors" so the human expert can focus only on the truly hard part.

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    4. scotty79 ◴[] No.46191658[source]
    > We treat them like databases, but they are hallucination machines.

    Which is kind of crazy because we don't even treat people as databases. Or at least we shouldn't.

    Maybe it's one of those things that will disappear form culture one funeral at a time.

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    5. malfist ◴[] No.46191761{3}[source]
    Why do any of those checks with ai though? All of them you can get a less error prone answer without ai.
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    6. squidbeak ◴[] No.46191774[source]
    I don't agree that users see them as databases. Sure there are those who expect LLMs to be infallible and punish the technology when it disappoints them, but it seems to me that the overwhelmingly majority quickly learn what AI's shortcomings are, and treat them instead like intelligent entities who will sometimes make mistakes.
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    7. philipallstar ◴[] No.46191785[source]
    > but it seems to me that the overwhelmingly majority

    The overwhelming majority of what?

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    8. multjoy ◴[] No.46191846[source]
    AI doesn’t necessarily mean an LLM, which are the systems making things up.
    9. hrimfaxi ◴[] No.46191851[source]
    Humans demand more reliability from our creations than from each other.
    10. ◴[] No.46191917[source]
    11. jennyholzer ◴[] No.46191922{4}[source]
    Robo-eugenics is the best answer I can come up with
    12. ◴[] No.46191967[source]
    13. antonvs ◴[] No.46192444{3}[source]
    Of users. It's an implicit subject from the first sentence.
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    14. philipallstar ◴[] No.46194222{4}[source]
    But how do they know that, if it's of all users?
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    15. antonvs ◴[] No.46195062{5}[source]
    They didn't claim to know it, they said "it seems to me". Presumably they're extrapolating from their experience, or their expectations of how an average user would behave.