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206 points pseudolus | 128 comments | | HN request time: 0.457s | source | bottom
1. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46008748[source]
I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after.

Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the same time went, "Ohhhh!" Mom was shocked that we'd noticed such a difference in her behavior and started taking the medication again.

I've been on the exact same dose as her for 15 years, and my 7-year-old son just started half that dose.

If I have a good day it's impossible to day whether that's due to Prozac. But since starting Prozac I have been much more likely to have good days than bad. So, since Prozac is cheap and I don't seem to suffer any side effects, I plan to keep taking it in perpetuity.

What I tell my kids is that getting depressed, feeling sad, feeling hopeless -- those are all normal feelings that everyone has from time to time. Pills can't or shouldn't keep you from feeling depressed if you have something to be depressed about. Pills are for people who feel depressed but don't have something to be depressed about -- they have food, shelter, friends, opportunities to contribute and be productive, nothing traumatic has happened, but they feel hopeless anyway -- and that's called Depression, which is different from "being depressed."

replies(7): >>46008842 #>>46008941 #>>46009047 #>>46009643 #>>46010222 #>>46011117 #>>46011264 #
2. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46008842[source]
Your anecdote has nothing to do with whether it's better than a placebo or not.
replies(2): >>46008950 #>>46010826 #
3. techietim ◴[] No.46008941[source]
> my 7-year-old son just started half that dose

This is horrifying.

replies(7): >>46008980 #>>46008992 #>>46009112 #>>46009132 #>>46009406 #>>46010017 #>>46010816 #
4. BeetleB ◴[] No.46008950[source]
His anecdote explicitly mentions the possibility of it being a placebo.
replies(1): >>46009005 #
5. kstrauser ◴[] No.46008980[source]
Why? If a kid has diabetes, would it be horrifying to treat it? Why would it be different for a neurochemistry issue that makes the same kid tired and sad all the time?
replies(1): >>46009004 #
6. potatocoffee ◴[] No.46008992[source]
Why?
replies(1): >>46009017 #
7. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46009004{3}[source]
Because the problem's not a "neurochemistry issue" (that theory's been debunked and the "chemicals" in play have never been known), and the solution is "no better than placebo."
replies(3): >>46009233 #>>46009249 #>>46009408 #
8. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46009005{3}[source]
No it doesn't. It doesn't contain the word "placebo." Can you quote where it "explicitly mentions" what you're saying it does?
replies(2): >>46009134 #>>46009569 #
9. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46009017{3}[source]
Because 7 years old is borderline too young to even make a depression diagnosis, and that kid's going to have his brain chemistry altered and essentially be addicted to a drug that he'll have to pay for for the rest of his life.
replies(3): >>46009065 #>>46009085 #>>46009175 #
10. ◴[] No.46009047[source]
11. potatocoffee ◴[] No.46009065{4}[source]
O cool. Do you have any appointments I can book for my kid?
replies(1): >>46009161 #
12. pyth0 ◴[] No.46009085{4}[source]
How can you believe it's both "no better than placebo" but also that it's "going to have his brain chemistry altered and essentially be addicted to a drug". SSRIs are not considered addictive, though people can develop a dependence if it provides them significant improvement.
replies(2): >>46009119 #>>46009657 #
13. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009112[source]
We had/have a lot of reservations about it too, and discussed it at length with our pediatrician over months of observation. We decided what was more horrifying was hearing a 7-year-old — who has supportive family and friends, good health, no traumatic events, no major life changes going on, never worries where food/shelter is coming from — say he feels like "he shouldn't be on Earth anymore" and suddenly react with extreme physical anxiety to almost everything. It was bad enough that he couldn't really implement any of the coping skills he learned in therapy. His therapist hoped that medication would bring him to a baseline where he was able to benefit more from therapy. My family's historical success with Prozac also made the decision more palatable since depression appears to be hereditary.

There has been a phenomenal positive shift in his behavior since he started medication. All that said, another commenter pointed out that the study specifically says that Prozac is no better than placebo for depression, which is similar to but distinct from anxiety, which is what my son is being treated for. My mom and I were both diagnosed with depression, but anxiety may be more accurate -- I'm not sure.

replies(7): >>46009133 #>>46009144 #>>46009595 #>>46010064 #>>46010306 #>>46010535 #>>46010800 #
14. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46009119{5}[source]
A drug can have real effects while being no better than a placebo for doing something specific (what they're supposed to do).
replies(1): >>46009189 #
15. fgonzag ◴[] No.46009132[source]
You don't understand what having extreme anxiety at that age feels like.

As someone who lived through that, I refuse to let him. All of memories of school are just feeling anxious about everything, just tight and suffocated, always in a panic. I started living when I started taking anxiety pills at 39 years old, and I can see my 2 year old having the exact same anxiety ticks and fits I have.

I don't know at what age I'll medicate him, but I'll do it as soon as I notice he isn't coping and happy anymore.

Horrifying is forcing him to experience that because you can't comprehend us.

replies(2): >>46009551 #>>46010346 #
16. jacobgkau ◴[] No.46009133{3}[source]
I'd be more interested in where your 7-year-old even learned phrases like "I feel like I shouldn't be on Earth anymore."
replies(7): >>46009157 #>>46009313 #>>46009487 #>>46010591 #>>46010716 #>>46011003 #>>46011152 #
17. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009134{4}[source]
> If I have a good day it's impossible to day whether that's due to Prozac. But since starting Prozac I have been much more likely to have good days than bad. So, since Prozac is cheap and I don't seem to suffer any side effects, I plan to keep taking it in perpetuity.

I was acknowledging that the "good days" could be due to Prozac or could be a placebo effect, but since being on Prozac correlates with having significantly more good days, and I experience virtually no ill effects, I choose to continue with it.

18. throwaway314155 ◴[] No.46009144{3}[source]
As someone with bad mental health since I was ~5 and parents who refused to acknowledge it - I think you're making the right decision.

There is however also benefit in updating your priors as new research comes out. I won't say this particular research discounts your experience. But maybe some day your son will prefer a different medication.

19. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009157{4}[source]
Yes, us too. Beats us. Sure wasn't around our house, and we can't imagine any family/friends/TV/whatever he may have learned it from.
replies(2): >>46009203 #>>46010115 #
20. fgonzag ◴[] No.46009161{5}[source]
Mine too! Only 2 years old but I can already see the massive anxiety bursts in him.

If this guy has a non chemical cure, I'm all for it. In fact I'm actively researching children psychologists to stave off the meds as much as we can, the problem is that 99% of psychologists are quacks, so choosing them is tough.

replies(1): >>46009363 #
21. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009175{4}[source]
According to our pediatrician there are no known long-term effects of juvenile Prozac use. The effects may exist, but if they do they are of sufficiently low significance as to not have been detected yet. Interestingly the one possible effect she's aware of is that there may be a correlation with not growing as tall physically as one might otherwise. The data is not conclusive, but it gives me something to blame for topping out at 5'10" and never hitting 6' like my dad. :)
replies(2): >>46009589 #>>46010413 #
22. pyth0 ◴[] No.46009189{6}[source]
Okay, so what makes you believe that about prozac (or SSRIs) then?
replies(1): >>46009731 #
23. ◴[] No.46009203{5}[source]
24. dekhn ◴[] No.46009233{4}[source]
Please share your qualifications for making a statement like this- do you work in biology? Are you knowledgeable about the underlying biology here, and the limitations of medical publications?
replies(2): >>46009536 #>>46009830 #
25. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009249{4}[source]
Can you provide a source for that theory having been debunked? I agree that data has been found that is at odds with the various neurochemical theories but am not aware of the neurochemistry link as a whole having been definitely debunked.
replies(1): >>46009317 #
26. lawlessone ◴[] No.46009313{4}[source]
It sounds to me how a someone would describe feeling suicidal when they don't know the word for it.
replies(1): >>46009799 #
27. GOD_Over_Djinn ◴[] No.46009317{5}[source]
Whenever I read a comment like this, I’m always curious if the commenter did some basic searching of their own. Just searching “chemical imbalance debunked” yields a wide array of sources. So why ask? It seems almost like a form of Socratic questioning. You want to debate the point, but for whatever reason, are not doing so directly.
replies(4): >>46009387 #>>46009629 #>>46009960 #>>46010042 #
28. potatocoffee ◴[] No.46009363{6}[source]
There's only so many times a kid can get sent home from school for biting/kicking/punching before you realize you need some professional help and will do anything to help the poor kid. I wish you luck.
29. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46009387{6}[source]
Ah, well-put! I think we may be reacting differently to the same articles. My understanding is that while various neurochemical theories have not been proven as the general public seems to think, they have also not necessarily been disproven or debunked. Certainly it has not been proven that neurochemistry has no role at all.
30. burner23499 ◴[] No.46009406[source]
It's also horrifying to hear your 7-year old child talk about committing suicide when you have a deep family history of depression, anxiety, and suicide.

Have some empathy.

31. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.46009408{4}[source]
I don't think we know if it's a neurochemistry issue. From what I understand what was debunked was the idea that they worked by blocking the reuptake of serotonin specifically.
32. throw-the-towel ◴[] No.46009487{4}[source]
Come on, 7 year olds should have already learned to form phrases.
replies(1): >>46010331 #
33. hintklb ◴[] No.46009536{5}[source]
Not that I agree or disagree with the underlying claim but a call to "credentialism" to dismiss someone's opinion is not as strong in 2025 as you think it is.

The last few years have been a proof that even the "experts" are following strong political or personal ideology.

Also we don't live in the 18th century anymore. A lot of knowledge (especially around medicine) is open to the world. People can read papers, understand research etc.

replies(1): >>46009563 #
34. hintklb ◴[] No.46009551{3}[source]
The main issue I see is that the anxiety pill is a way to treat the symptoms, not the cause.

Do you think that there is a way to treat the underlying cause and not the symptoms?

replies(3): >>46009767 #>>46010556 #>>46010899 #
35. dekhn ◴[] No.46009563{6}[source]
In this area, having credentials makes a difference. Experts matter.

Few if any non-medical people can read medical papers and make sense of what they say. There is simply far too much context to evaluate such papers, especially in the cases of complex medical conditions.

replies(2): >>46009708 #>>46009754 #
36. some_guy_nobel ◴[] No.46009569{4}[source]
Wow, a shockingly argumentative tone for someone who is just flat out wrong.

Beyond the response someone else commented explaining exactly where the comparison was mentioned, the anecdote itself is useful in offering an experience of someone who's life has been changed by the drug.

In any case, the study mentioned in the article is a meta-analysis about children, not adults, so there is no onus on OP to qualify anything about placebo or not.

replies(2): >>46010299 #>>46011126 #
37. ckw ◴[] No.46009589{5}[source]
This is one of the most shocking things I have ever read. There is a black box warning for Prozac:

‘Warning: Suicidality and Antidepressant Drugs

Increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults taking antidepressants for Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders’

Read the package insert: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2011/01...

The fact that you were not informed about this should serve as proof that you cannot blindly trust what doctors tell you. They will absolutely kill you out of ignorance or incompetence, and never even realize their responsibility.

replies(3): >>46009800 #>>46009941 #>>46010239 #
38. rsyring ◴[] No.46009595{3}[source]
You seem to be handling the naysayers pretty well. But, still wanted to compliment you for sharing and encourage you not to let them get to you.

It sounds like you made a wise decision given your personal and family history and your son is benefiting. Kudos.

39. ToucanLoucan ◴[] No.46009629{6}[source]
Probably because the commenter is not a medical professional and isn't qualified to judge the veracity of anything they find. "Do your own research" is a fucking plague on our modern world and is why the internet is like wall to wall grifters now.

By all means, Google whatever you like, but if you show up to a doctors office waving WebMD sheets in a medical professionals face, you are going to be mocked and you deserve it.

replies(2): >>46010020 #>>46011139 #
40. nominalprose ◴[] No.46009643[source]
I recently started giving my 11 year old SAM-e, available over the counter and much faster acting than SSRIs for serotonin support. He's been much happier and more regulated since taking it. I'd encourage folk to read up on the literature around SAM-e and consider it as a lower risk alternative to try first, that may in fact work better.
41. jasonfarnon ◴[] No.46009657{5}[source]
The whole point of the linked article is that the drug is no better at placebo at treating depression but also carries a host of known side effects, besides unknowns when it comes to long term use. They're not saying it's inert.
42. hintklb ◴[] No.46009708{7}[source]
Sorry but strong disagree here.

I have had a lot of Spinal and sleep issues. I have read almost all new literature on this niche subject and I have brought to my spine doctor some new therapy and treatments they had literally no idea about. Those treatments have changed my life.

As an engineer I read a lot of deep technical paper as my day job. Medical papers are comparatively relatively simple. The most complex part being usually the statistical data analysis.

We have pushed to a whole generation of people that only the "experts" can have opinion on some fields. I encourage everyone to read papers and have opinions on some of those subjects.

We are in 2025. That type of gatekeeping needs to go away. AI if anything, is going to really help with this as well.

replies(4): >>46009814 #>>46010111 #>>46010265 #>>46010665 #
43. ckw ◴[] No.46009731{7}[source]
Here’s a paper from last year: The nature and impact of antidepressant withdrawal symptoms and proposal of the Discriminatory Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms Scale (DAWSS) https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jadr.2024.100765

‘Highlights

• Antidepressant withdrawal can be severe and protracted.

• It produces characteristic physical and emotional symptoms.

• All symptoms were more severe after stopping than before starting antidepressants.

• We identified the 15 most discriminatory withdrawal symptoms in our sample.

• Withdrawal did not differ between people with physical or mental health diagnoses.’

44. ◴[] No.46009754{7}[source]
45. ksenzee ◴[] No.46009767{4}[source]
How do you know an anxiety pill is treating symptoms only? What if the cause is physiological, and the pill treats that? It is entirely possible to sit in your therapist's office and mutually shrug because neither of you can find an underlying reason for your anxiety. Sometimes anxiety just is.
46. pinkmuffinere ◴[] No.46009799{5}[source]
Ya, when I'm sad I can come up with pretty creative language to express it. It does feel really tough to know that a seven year old feels like that :(
47. ksenzee ◴[] No.46009800{6}[source]
Note that the black box warning has nothing to do with long-term effects of the medication. It was added specifically because kids were killing themselves within weeks of starting the medication.

> This is one of the most shocking things I have ever read.

Good grief. I hope you're exaggerating for effect.

replies(2): >>46009988 #>>46010116 #
48. tjohns ◴[] No.46009814{8}[source]
I think it's good to read papers and be curious.

It's also good to work with your doctors (as you seem to have done), have a discussion, and mutually agree on a plan of treatment.

Experts don't know everything. But they probably know some things you don't, and can think of questions you might not to have even thought to ask. As the saying goes, "you don't know what you don't know". Experience matters.

There's also a lot of people out there without an academic background that don't know how to properly read journal papers. It's common to see folks do a quick search on PubMed, cherry-pick a single paper they agree with, and treat it as gospel - even if there's no evidence of repeatability. These skills are not something that many people outside STEM are exposed to.

replies(1): >>46009903 #
49. tremon ◴[] No.46009830{5}[source]
I hope you do realize that this comment thread is linked to an article that includes the words "Prozac no better than placebo" in its headline?
replies(2): >>46009926 #>>46010746 #
50. dekhn ◴[] No.46009903{9}[source]
Cherrypicking is bad, but worse is reading a paper and thinking you understand what it says, when you don't actually understand what it says. Or thinking that a paper and its data can be observed neutrally as a factual and accurate statement for what work was actually done.

My experience in journal club- basically, a group of grad students who all read a paper and then discuss it in person- taught me that most papers are just outright wrong for technical reasons. I'd say about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 papers passes all the basic tests, and even the ones that do pass can have significant problems. For example, there is an increasing recognition that many papers in biology and medicine have fake data, or manipulated data, or corrupted data, or incorrectly labelled data. I know folks who've read papers and convinced themselvs the paper is good, when later the paper was retracted because the authors copied a few gels into the wrong columns...

replies(1): >>46011061 #
51. dekhn ◴[] No.46009926{6}[source]
Yes, I do. I don't consider articles in the regular press to be even remotely worth looking at due to their high rate of inaccuracy. Here's the paper that the article refers to: https://www.jclinepi.com/article/S0895-4356%2825%2900349-X/f...
52. wredcoll ◴[] No.46009941{6}[source]
This is such a blatant misrepresentation of the parent post that it feels almost bad faith.

The subject was specifically about long term brain chemistry changes.

People committing suicide after taking it, while incredibly sad, is completely unrelated.

replies(1): >>46010472 #
53. dugidugout ◴[] No.46009960{6}[source]
I'll take this sincerely, and ask you, is this really something you've a continuing curiosity about? I have a suspicion you understand what is taking place, but for whatever reason, are not expressing so directly. Are you asserting there is nothing more to discuss after one parses the search results for “chemical imbalance debunked”. The parent is quite clearly, at the minimum, meeting their parent's level of input, which essentially amounted to "this thing is debunked". As an onlooker and after a quick skim of the search query you suggested, I am still not exactly clear on what "neurochemistry issue [theory]" entails. What would help, is a more clear underpinning for what is being discussed, which your parent is suggesting, through question, before attempting to respond. I appreciate this personally!
54. ryandrake ◴[] No.46009988{7}[source]
I'll raise my hand in agreement. This thread is definitely one of the most disturbing sub-threads I've ever read on HN.
replies(1): >>46010026 #
55. SkyPuncher ◴[] No.46010017[source]
No, it's not.

Medicine is advancing. We're increasingly able to understand and adjust dysfunctions that cause major, negative quality of life impacts. These dysfunctions have always existed, we're just getting better at finding ways to help people work through it.

56. ckw ◴[] No.46010020{7}[source]
I witnessed a pair of doctors prescribe a family member an incredibly dangerous drug for an off label use. The company had been fined $500 million dollars for various illegal schemes to convince doctors to write such prescriptions, but I’m sure the doctors in question were unaware of this. When this family member began to exhibit textbook symptoms of an extremely dangerous (life threatening) condition which could only be caused by the drug in question, the doctors failed to notice, and in fact repeatedly increased the dosage, and added more drugs on top to treat the symptoms caused by the initial drug. It was not until I accompanied my relative to a doctor’s appointment and delivered a carefully designed incantation that they made the correct diagnosis and halted the prescriptions.

So should I not have done my own research?

57. ksenzee ◴[] No.46010026{8}[source]
It’s disturbing that a seven-year-old was treated for suicidality? Or it’s disturbing that people are opposed to such treatment?
58. brendoelfrendo ◴[] No.46010042{6}[source]
I wouldn't recommend searching for "chemical imbalance debunked" unless you intend to confirm an existing bias. The internet will show you whatever you want, and there are enough people who distrust medical professionals that any search for "debunking" will be a minefield of fringe theories and grifters. I'd recommend someone start generally, searching for information about clinical depression, and then build on that to look at root causes and how the medical understanding of those root causes has changed over time.
replies(1): >>46011106 #
59. ◴[] No.46010064{3}[source]
60. plufz ◴[] No.46010111{8}[source]
But is that really what you are seeing in this HN comment thread? People who seem very well researched in the biochemicals and meta studies of Prozac? I don’t. :)
61. pizzafeelsright ◴[] No.46010115{5}[source]
Children are intelligent and creative and this is normal.

Children speak like this and then I correct them. I explain it isn't helpful, explain why they are blessed, how their life could be worse, and provide them alternative phrases while they explain their emotional state.

Depression is caused by laziness and anxiety by hopelessness. My kids know that they aren't permitted to be lazy or say they are bored. They don't have anxiety because they have hope despite circumstances.

replies(6): >>46010316 #>>46010343 #>>46010404 #>>46010602 #>>46011205 #>>46011493 #
62. ckw ◴[] No.46010116{7}[source]
Death is a long term effect. And I am not exaggerating. I did not feel the need to list any of the myriad other potential long term effects because death seemed sufficiently serious.

Edit: in case the OP is reading, I should say also that the package insert won’t mention many other potential long term effects addressed in the literature, like extra pyramidal symptoms (akathisia, Parkinsonism, dystonia, tardive dyskinesia).

Another edit: ask GPT-5 ‘What are the long term side effects of Prozac use which aren’t addressed in the package insert?’ for a list.

replies(1): >>46011243 #
63. Terr_ ◴[] No.46010222[source]
> My sister and I looked at each other and at the same time went, "Ohhhh!"

I suppose the next step would be to upgrade from single-blind to double-blind, so that your mom won't know which month is the placebo month...

replies(1): >>46011011 #
64. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010239{6}[source]
We were certainly informed of this. I didn't count it among the long-term health effects. I'm an educated and skeptical person but have never found any reason to distrust my physicians.
replies(1): >>46010709 #
65. ryandrake ◴[] No.46010265{8}[source]
> We have pushed to a whole generation of people that only the "experts" can have opinion on some fields. I encourage everyone to read papers and have opinions on some of those subjects.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on something as a non-expert, as long as those opinions are not acted upon or relied upon as a source of reliable information. Read papers, watch YouTube, browse WebMD, satisfy your curiosity--knock yourself out. But don't undergo treatment without working with an actual expert! I'm not an expert on orbital mechanics, but I have played KSP and have formed various opinions about it. But nobody should be listening to me for advice on how to launch a rocket.

We need gatekeeping for a reason, especially in the medical field which is rife with miracle cures, snake oil, herbal remedies, detoxes, homeopathy, and other forms of quackery.

Believing my "research" is better than my specialist's education is a path back to the dark ages.

replies(1): >>46010996 #
66. ozim ◴[] No.46010299{5}[source]
Some people just need to have stuff spelled out for them.
67. Yodel0914 ◴[] No.46010306{3}[source]
I was one of those “medicating kids is a terrible idea” people, until I had kids with severe generalised anxiety. It took a lot to convince me to try it, but it made their lives better in such an obvious, immediate way. The whole experience made me a lot more humble about opinions I hold without relevant experience.
replies(2): >>46010698 #>>46011413 #
68. konmok ◴[] No.46010316{6}[source]
> Depression is caused by laziness and anxiety by hopelessness.

I wish this were true, but its not even close. I wonder how your kids will react when they move away, and you're not around to police their emotional expression. If they're like me, they will promptly collapse into paralysis and self-destruction.

I strongly suggest that you frequently give your kids long stretches of time (months) to practice regulating themselves, without your interference.

And if they have anxiety or depression, please let them see a professional. If my parents had noticed the signs earlier, they would have saved me decades of pain.

replies(1): >>46010438 #
69. incr_me ◴[] No.46010331{5}[source]
No, you see, this phrase must have appeared in his training set.
70. poly2it ◴[] No.46010343{6}[source]
> Depression is caused by laziness [...]. My kids know that they aren't permitted to be lazy.

Do you really believe this, or do you believe your children aren't depressed? Your comment is not in accordance with science. Depression is a complex topic. I'm having trouble imagining a way to be more wrong. Is this satire?

replies(1): >>46010405 #
71. bigmattystyles ◴[] No.46010346{3}[source]
I'm sorry that you're dealing with this - it was my greatest fear at that point. That my daughter seems to not have my disposition and seems happy go lucky is the greatest thing ever. There's no rhyme or reason to my depression and anxiety, it's completely maladaptive and I'm relieved, that knock on wood, she stays happy and light while not having to shield herself from the horrors of the world.
72. ◴[] No.46010404{6}[source]
73. pizzafeelsright ◴[] No.46010405{7}[source]
No, not satire. How does science measure depression? There isn't a blood test and brain scans are inconclusive.

That said, I have not met a depressed person who exercises each day and lives in a clean house.

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74. opo ◴[] No.46010413{5}[source]
I appreciate how open and honest you have been in this discussion. While it might be that taking Prozac is the best choice for your child, I have to admit I would never let a pediatrician prescribe Prozac (or any other SSRI) - this is enough outside their normal training, I would want to consult with a specialist. Can't you get a referral to a pediatric psychiatrist of some sort?
75. piperswe ◴[] No.46010425{8}[source]
It's almost as if depression reduces your executive function, making it more difficult to exercise each day or consistently clean your house.

And then you feel worthless for not being able to do those things, reinforcing the depression.

replies(1): >>46010473 #
76. pizzafeelsright ◴[] No.46010438{7}[source]
At this age I am teaching emotional regulation on a daily basis.

As for when they grow up, adults who cannot manage their emotions get fired or are sent to jail. It is critical to be slow to anger, quick to forgive, and work at building strong friendships.

replies(1): >>46010926 #
77. konmok ◴[] No.46010440{8}[source]
I know several depressed people that exercise every day and live in a clean house.
replies(1): >>46010480 #
78. ckw ◴[] No.46010472{7}[source]
There is no effect which is more long term than death. It is incredible to me that this is not obvious. But if you want other potential long term effects:

Lower bone mineral density, increased risk of fractures, osteoporosis

Sexual dysfunction / PSSD (Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction)

extra pyramidal symptoms (akathisia, Parkinsonism, dystonia, tardive dyskinesia)

emotional blunting / apathy

slowed thinking, brain fog

increased risk of gastrointestinal bleeding

QT prolongation

replies(1): >>46010851 #
79. pizzafeelsright ◴[] No.46010473{9}[source]
I agree 100% and it is an uphill battle requiring significant effort. That is where discipline is required. Exercising that discipline will bring positive results. There is nothing other than self stopping someone from cleaning instead of crying under a blanket.
replies(1): >>46010889 #
80. pizzafeelsright ◴[] No.46010480{9}[source]
That's unfortunate. Ask they why they are depressed and see if there is any way to fix it.
replies(1): >>46010771 #
81. burner420042 ◴[] No.46010535{3}[source]
I appreciate your candor in this. A respectful and on-going discussion and dialogue about this subject is really the best way forward for us all.
82. afro88 ◴[] No.46010556{4}[source]
Often the cause is things that most people can handle, without being able to easily wield the tools to handle them. Having a pill that dulls the symptoms gives space to learn and become adept at the tools
83. skywhopper ◴[] No.46010591{4}[source]
Do you have a kid? Because they are humans who see and listen and hear and think on their own and don’t need to hear a phrase to come up with it, but also who definitely hear all sorts of things you don’t know about.
84. skywhopper ◴[] No.46010602{6}[source]
You have no clue of which you speak.
85. skywhopper ◴[] No.46010611{8}[source]
You should shut your mouth and stop talking about things you know nothing about.
86. tombert ◴[] No.46010665{8}[source]
This just reads as Dunning Kruger-esque to me. You think that because you know how to read a technical paper in engineering, you're as or more competent than a doctor.

Yes, experts are wrong all the time, they have the disability of being human, but this seems like an extremely anti-intellectual take.

replies(1): >>46011036 #
87. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010698{4}[source]
It's important to remember that not being a "medicating kids is a terrible idea" person doesn't mean one is a "every medication is a great idea" person. I'm probably like most people where in a perfect world I wouldn't medicate at all, and treat unfamiliar medications with some skepticism. But also I accept that I'm not (and am not interested in being) a medical expert, so if there is a medical need that I can't handle myself I'll take the advice of a clinician who has earned my trust with good reasoning.
88. ckw ◴[] No.46010709{7}[source]
I have many reasons for distrusting physicians, but here's a particularly good one: the large drug companies have been fined repeatedly billions of dollars for illegal schemes to convince doctors to prescribe drugs off-label. From a justice department press release (https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/pharmaceutical-giant...):

'AstraZeneca LP and AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP will pay $520 million to resolve allegations that AstraZeneca illegally marketed the anti-psychotic drug Seroquel for uses not approved as safe and effective by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the Departments of Justice and Health and Human Services’ Health Care Fraud Enforcement Action Team (HEAT) announced today. Such unapproved uses are also known as "off-label" uses because they are not included in the drug’s FDA approved product label.

[..]

The United States alleges that AstraZeneca illegally marketed Seroquel for uses never approved by the FDA. Specifically, between January 2001 through December 2006, AstraZeneca promoted Seroquel to psychiatrists and other physicians for certain uses that were not approved by the FDA as safe and effective (including aggression, Alzheimer’s disease, anger management, anxiety, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, bipolar maintenance, dementia, depression, mood disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and sleeplessness). These unapproved uses were not medically accepted indications for which the United States and the state Medicaid programs provided coverage for Seroquel.

According to the settlement agreement, AstraZeneca targeted its illegal marketing of the anti-psychotic Seroquel towards doctors who do not typically treat schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, such as physicians who treat the elderly, primary care physicians, pediatric and adolescent physicians, and in long-term care facilities and prisons.

[..]

The United States contends that AstraZeneca promoted the unapproved uses by improperly and unduly influencing the content of, and speakers, in company-sponsored continuing medical education programs. The company also engaged doctors to give promotional speaker programs on unapproved uses for Seroquel and to conduct studies on unapproved uses of Seroquel. In addition, the company recruited doctors to serve as authors of articles that were ghostwritten by medical literature companies and about studies the doctors in question did not conduct. AstraZeneca then used those studies and articles as the basis for promotional messages about unapproved uses of Seroquel.

"Illegal acts by pharmaceutical companies and false claims against Medicare and Medicaid can put the public health at risk, corrupt medical decisions by health care providers, and take billions of dollars directly out of taxpayers’ pockets," said Attorney General Eric Holder. "This Administration is committed to recovering taxpayer money lost to health care fraud, whether it’s by bringing cases against common criminals operating out of vacant storefronts or executives at some of the nation’s biggest companies."

The United States also contends that AstraZeneca violated the federal Anti-Kickback Statute by offering and paying illegal remuneration to doctors it recruited to serve as authors of articles written by AstraZeneca and its agents about the unapproved uses of Seroquel. AstraZeneca also offered and paid illegal remuneration to doctors to travel to resort locations to "advise" AstraZeneca about marketing messages for unapproved uses of Seroquel, and paid doctors to give promotional lectures to other health care professionals about unapproved and unaccepted uses of Seroquel. The United States contends that these payments were intended to induce the doctors to prescribe Seroquel for unapproved uses in violation of the federal Anti-Kickback Statute. '

The takeaway is that anytime a physician prescribes you a drug, at the very least you have to check that there hasn't been a gigantic fine levied against the drug maker for illegally tricking your doctor into prescribing it to you.

89. georgeburdell ◴[] No.46010716{4}[source]
I’m with you on this. Granted my oldest is only 5, but anything profound my kids say can be traced back to something they heard
replies(1): >>46011326 #
90. malfist ◴[] No.46010746{6}[source]
These types of studies are published all the time and can easily be dismissed. Antidepressants are _only_ for major depression. Not mild or moderate. These studies that find no significance compared to a placebo are always tried in patients with all types of depression. Not just major.

It's so common it's a trope. "Antidepressants don't work" says the scientists testing antidepressants on things they're not supposed to work on.

Studies repeated with just major depression all conclude antidepressants are better than a placebo.

Click through the article to the study and you'll find they did not limit their study to must major

91. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010760{8}[source]
You can use me as an example! When I got diagnosed I was very physically active and also quite clean.

One of the hardest things for me with depression is the incredible guilt I have. What right do I have to be depressed when my life is objectively fine? Why should I get therapy when that might mean one less space for someone who is dealing with trauma or poverty or something else that gives them a "right" to be depressed? This causes a feedback loop of guilt leading to more depression and vice-versa.

Like I tell my kids, it's normal to sometimes feel depressed or hopeless. If you're dealing with a difficult circumstance then it's reasonable to have those feelings, and the only way to address those feelings is to deal with the circumstance. What's not normal is feeling depressed and hopeless for no logical reason at all.

replies(1): >>46010981 #
92. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010771{10}[source]
You think they don't ask themselves that question all day, every day?

reddit.com/r/thanksimcured

93. gnulinux996 ◴[] No.46010800{3}[source]
> he feels like "he shouldn't be on Earth anymore" and suddenly react with extreme physical anxiety to almost everything.

Normal kid behavior has been "diagnosed" by the parents and the kid pumped with Prozac because it worked on his grandma.

This is a tremendous failure in parenting.

replies(1): >>46010876 #
94. shepardrtc ◴[] No.46010816[source]
I had terrible anxiety as a child and what I experienced dramatically affected the core of who I am. It is engrained in me and I struggle with it daily, though after decades I have surpassed a good portion of it. If a small dose can help someone have a somewhat "normal" childhood, then its worth a try.
95. burnte ◴[] No.46010826[source]
The comment never said otherwise. They shared a personal story about how it worked for an adult.
96. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010851{8}[source]
I, like every other person who hasn't been living under a rock, am abundantly aware of corruption in Big Pharma and medicine. If my mother and I have both taken a given well-known medication for decades and found it effectively treated a condition that may be hereditary with no negative side effects, and my son is demonstrating symptoms similar to mine and my mother's, is it unreasonable to tolerate my son trying the same medication? That's a far cry from committing to forcing him to take the medication his whole life, or trying some mystery drug with which I have no familiarity.
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97. V__ ◴[] No.46010875{8}[source]
Black swans do not exist. I have never seen one.
98. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010876{4}[source]
Suicidal ideation at 7 years old is not normal kid behavior, neither is sudden and unprecedented paralyzing anxiety over the prospect of ordinary things like going to a friend's birthday party or trying a new playground.

Me and my mom are on identical doses of Prozac to treat very similar symptoms.

We consulted with a child therapist, a pediatrician, and a psychiatrist.

replies(1): >>46011303 #
99. V__ ◴[] No.46010889{10}[source]
"If you have executive dysfunction, just discipline through it" is definitely a take.
100. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010899{4}[source]
What if there is no rational cause?
101. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46010926{8}[source]
You imply we aren't teaching emotional regulation on a daily basis? We have always placed a great deal of emphasis on talking about feelings and developing "tools for our toolboxes" to deal with them. Unfortunately those tools are largely inadequate when there isn't a rational cause for a debilitating emotional state.
replies(1): >>46011520 #
102. arjie ◴[] No.46010981{9}[source]
I appreciate your sharing your experience. I think it's very valuable that human beings describe to each other their decision making, actions, and outcomes. Often, people attempt to dissuade the sharing of information, and I think that leads to us, as humans, being less able to form an accurate model of the world. I appreciate your pushing through that form of opposition.
103. hintklb ◴[] No.46010996{9}[source]
> Believing my "research" is better than my specialist's education is a path back to the dark ages.

Doing your research should not be in competition with your specialist's education. It should be complementary as yet another source of information.

I'm not saying experts are wrong but I also don't think they are particularly always right. They are human and they have strong groupthink. They will agree and disagree with some takes based on their personal or political beliefs.

104. fn-mote ◴[] No.46011003{4}[source]
7 year olds are second graders in school. They are exposed to plenty.
replies(1): >>46011321 #
105. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46011011[source]
Interestingly my son has an identical twin! I like to joke that one is the control and sleeps in the house and the other has to sleep in the storage shed out back, and when they're 18 we'll publish a paper comparing their emotional development. :)

I always thought DNA determined pretty much everything, and we raised them exactly the same, but they have distinct personalities and some different physical features, although of course they're much more similar than they are different. My other son shows some symptoms of anxiety but not as much, yet.

106. hintklb ◴[] No.46011036{9}[source]
sorry but your take seems to be the anti-intellectual here.

You seem to think that the educated class got a monopoly on knowledge on that field, yet after that claim to know that experts are wrong all the time. The anti-intellectual take is to give up on trying to understand as much as you can in a field because you don't have the right credentials to do so. Yes, medical papers are not that complicated to read.

That doesn't make you more competent than your doctor. But it probably makes you a better advocate for yourself than your doctor is.

My point is: Don't discount yourself reading papers and doing your own research. Then work with your "credentialed experts" to come to an agreement. Don't ever think that the "experts" got your best interest at heart.

replies(1): >>46011281 #
107. hintklb ◴[] No.46011061{10}[source]
By extending your statement you are essentially saying that the credentialed experts have a monopoly on knowledge in their fields? As anyone else reading a paper probably think he understands but actually doesn't? What a weird take.

The knowledge is out there. Yes there are a ton of bogus papers and a ton of bad research. Not everyone got the critical knowledge to figure this out but I also don't think this is only reserved to the "experts". They are also subject to groupthink and other political pressure to think a specific way.

At the end of the day, do your best own research and work with your "expert" to agree on a solution.

Pushing back on people reading paper is an anti-intellectual take (to use the same wording as another poster below).

108. GOD_Over_Djinn ◴[] No.46011106{7}[source]
One of the first search results for me was a paper published in Nature. Other top results were from respected institutions like the NIH and Harvard University. Hardly grifters or crazies.

The caveat you cite applies to basically any and all internet (or even media) consumption, and is therefore a non-argument.

109. lemming ◴[] No.46011117[source]
I'm very sorry to hear your story, and I'm really glad the medication has worked well for you and your family. It's early days, but it seems to be working well for ours too.

I also really admire the way you're dealing patiently with everyone in this thread arguing in bad faith, you have a lot more tolerance than I do! Hopefully it's not getting to you. Best wishes.

110. in_cahoots ◴[] No.46011126{5}[source]
To be fair, I didn't read that suggestion as being about a possible placebo effect, just that you can't attribute any one good day to the pill. It's like climate change- it undeniably exists, but you can't blame climate change for a single heat wave or freak storm.
111. nick__m ◴[] No.46011134{8}[source]
you have the causality reversed....
112. GOD_Over_Djinn ◴[] No.46011139{7}[source]
I both agree and disagree. The issue is not independent thinking and research - it’s the low media literacy of the average person that makes them vulnerable to frauds, grifters, and crazies.

With that said, the first few search results for the query were from the journal Nature, the NIH, and Harvard university. Hardly the loony or malicious caricature that you attempt to paint.

113. peepee1982 ◴[] No.46011159{8}[source]
It’s pretty tough to exercise or clean your house when getting out of bed feels like an insurmountable task.

Depression isn’t like an infection or cancer—it’s a diagnosis based on established criteria, as are most mental disorders. Experts may disagree on diagnosis or treatment, but that doesn’t make it useless.

By that logic, you might as well say autism is caused by avoiding eye contact—since there’s no blood test for it either.

114. JadeNB ◴[] No.46011205{6}[source]
> Depression is caused by laziness and anxiety by hopelessness. My kids know that they aren't permitted to be lazy or say they are bored. They don't have anxiety because they have hope despite circumstances.

This sounds horrible. If I weren't depressed or anxious, being told that I wasn't ever permitted to be lazy or say that I was bored would make me so; and, if I were, then being told that I was lazy and hopeless would make it worse.

115. ksenzee ◴[] No.46011243{8}[source]
It sounds to me like you're saying suicidality in children either doesn't exist, or shouldn't be treated, or should only be treated with talk therapy. If what you're saying instead is "this SSRI is especially dangerous" then ok, you and I just disagree about what information sources are reliable, and that's probably not a difference we can resolve. But if you're saying suicidality in children shouldn't be treated with medication, I'm curious whether you've ever met a six- or seven-year-old who wants to die. It is terrifying. It needs treatment. And talk therapy in children that age is honestly a joke. In the OP's place I would give my child an SSRI without any hesitation.
116. drekipus ◴[] No.46011264[source]
> Pills are for people who feel depressed but don't have something to be depressed about -- they have food, shelter, friends, opportunities to contribute and be productive, nothing traumatic has happened, but they feel hopeless anyway

This warrants a whole different discussion, and I'll be down voted for it, but one that's never addressed: quality over quantity.

Pills are the individuals response to a society that feeds empty food, bland sterile shelter, fake friends, and meaningless jobs.

The natural human response to a lack of meaning is hopelessness, and this comes from our society. Pills helps individuals cope with continuing the meat grinder just a little while longer.

I had depression, and I cured it by finding meaning and beauty in the world. I get told "if you can cure it without pills, you never really had it" yeah cool, self fullfilling prophecy in that case innit. Can't cure it, because it doesn't exist without meds. It just comes out of "nowhere" and is here to stay.

117. collingreen ◴[] No.46011280{8}[source]
This is a pretty nasty line to double down on.

I hope you can take your personal anecdotes and add them to a larger body of research and other people's experience to refine your understanding. If you're right that everyone who has Depression is actually just lazy, you'll see lots of support for that. If, instead, you find a lot of different experiences you might conclude that Depression is a pretty nuanced and complicated topic, which might both expand your understanding and help you bring more empathy to the suffering people around you.

118. tombert ◴[] No.46011281{10}[source]
I don't have a problem with reading papers and doing research, and I never once claimed that the "educated class" has or should have a monopoly on a field. You wouldn't know this, but for the first ten years of my career as a software person I was as a college dropout; I certainly am not someone who is going to get all hot and bothered about people having letters after their names.

That said, I have a tough time believing that spending an hour on Sci-Hub makes you better at diagnosis, yourself or otherwise, than someone who spent a decade being educated with decades of practicing. Thinking that you know better than trained experts because you have an understanding of the very beginning of a field is overwhelmingly tempting but is generally not based in reality. Usually the people who have actually been trained in the field know more about the field than a random person who read a few papers that they thought were "comparatively relatively simple".

I read papers all the time, usually formal methods, but sometimes other fields like medicine, and I will sometimes leave the medical paper thinking that it's "easier" than what I study, but I think that's just Dunning Kruger. I know more about formal methods, so I know a lot more about what I don't know, and thus I feel like it's harder. I don't know a ton about medicine, and since I don't know what I don't know it can feel like I know everything, and I have to fight this urge.

By all means, read about research in whatever ailment you have, I'm not really trying to discourage that, but I feel like dismissing experts in the field is almost the definition of "anti-intellectualism". If you find a study that you think is promising, bring it to your doctor. Hell, bring it to a dozen doctors, multiple opinions isn't a bad thing.

I just don't like the general "don't trust experts" thing that seems to be flying around certain circles now.

119. collingreen ◴[] No.46011303{5}[source]
You are shockingly patient and nice to these people who are going out of their way to be judgmental jerks.

Kudos to you; you're inspiring me to find more grace in my life, but don't feel obligated to respond to these people who are trying only to bring people down.

120. ckw ◴[] No.46011311{9}[source]
My deepest views on this subject are personal, subjective, and more controversial. I have watched several family members take antidepressants for upwards of four decades, and I myself suffered terrible depression throughout my childhood and teenage years. Despite my depression, I always avoided antidepressants for some ineffable reason-- a hunch, a nebulous suspicion, I'm not sure what to call it. Somewhere in my mid twenties my depression lifted and never returned. I look back on my life, which has been filled with hardship, and I feel positively disposed to the suffering. The suffering made me who I am. I feel strongly that my character would be diminished had I not experienced it.

On the other hand, I watched family members take these drugs, and their lives seem somehow dulled-- filled with banal tragedy, like staying in a bad marriage, or not being particularly interested in their grandchildren. I have a theory that the drugs make palatable that which otherwise wouldn't be, hence they stay in the bad marriage, the bad job, and they watch their bad TV and eat their bad food and everything is fine. I've also seen one of them go off the drugs, and for a couple months they were a much more vibrant person. I saw them express joy. I feel a low grade rage toward the industry that I've been deprived of this version of them. I do entertain the possibility that I'm imagining it all. Maybe things really would have been worse without the drugs. But I am glad no one ever insisted, or even strongly advocated I take them myself.

121. drekipus ◴[] No.46011321{5}[source]
Many public schools have teachings about climate change, issues white people gave the world, native stolen land etc.

It could be easy for a kid to feel depressed when they're either the source or the victim of all the world's problems only being 7 years in

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122. drekipus ◴[] No.46011326{5}[source]
Teachers / schools / mandatory privilege education
123. robertakarobin ◴[] No.46011398{6}[source]
With both my kids in 2nd grade and my wife also a public 2nd grade teacher, I consider myself pretty aware of what kids are being taught these days. They certainly are being gradually introduced to some of the problems of the world, but I think childhood development experts would all agree that's healthy. As for them being told they're the source or victim that's hardly the case. I'm sure there are a few isolated incidents that right-wing media love to bang on about, but not the experience for most.
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124. tempestn ◴[] No.46011413{4}[source]
> The whole experience made me a lot more humble about opinions I hold without relevant experience.

I wish there were a way to shortcut this process for society so that so many people didn't need to either go through a similar experience personally to have such an epiphany, or worse, never have it at all. (Speaking not only about medication for kids, but other polarizing issues as well.)

125. conception ◴[] No.46011452{6}[source]
All this comment points out it’s you aren’t very familiar with second grades curriculums.
126. drekipus ◴[] No.46011462{7}[source]
> but I think childhood development experts would all agree that's healthy.

Could it be that we think it's healthy because we can just give meds to the kids that it affects?

How would someone even have the ability to say "it's healthy" - I'm struggling to think how it comes about. I think it's healthy for my kids to cry about a worm dying in the garden, but anything less than "anxiety about a dying planet"...

Put it another way: climate change messaging IS totally about anxiety and putting human as the cause, so we can (as adults) change our habits and save the planet. Could it be too much for kids though?

127. ◴[] No.46011493{6}[source]
128. rfrey ◴[] No.46011520{9}[source]
People who have never experienced a particular challenge are quick to assume credit for its absence and assign moral failings to others who experience it. It's insufferable but common.

Imagine a millionaire who had millionaire parents lecturing his children on how they're not allowed to be poor. Lo! They're not! The lectures worked.