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574 points nh43215rgb | 37 comments | | HN request time: 0.04s | source | bottom
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ktallett ◴[] No.45780988[source]
Why exactly have ICE been given limitless power? Facial recognition is at best right more than half the time, but many studies have shown it to be consistently faulty leading to many wrong ID's. What is the point of a database with incorrect biometric data connected to a person?
replies(11): >>45781281 #>>45781284 #>>45781294 #>>45781410 #>>45781531 #>>45781652 #>>45782048 #>>45782059 #>>45782431 #>>45782440 #>>45784642 #
1. AtlasBarfed ◴[] No.45781284[source]
Because half of American voters want fascism.
replies(4): >>45781594 #>>45781728 #>>45781899 #>>45782453 #
2. righthand ◴[] No.45781594[source]
Not even close to half.
replies(2): >>45781911 #>>45782150 #
3. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.45781728[source]
Are there really that many unbelievably stupid people?
replies(4): >>45781863 #>>45781910 #>>45783260 #>>45784846 #
4. spencerflem ◴[] No.45781863[source]
Some of them are unbelievably cruel
replies(1): >>45782513 #
5. mothballed ◴[] No.45781899[source]
Democrats threw the election by telling their primary voters party base to go fuck themselves and instead just jammed through an unpopular candidate (even in her home state) at the 11th hour.
replies(2): >>45781997 #>>45783233 #
6. animitronix ◴[] No.45781910[source]
Yup!
7. animitronix ◴[] No.45781911[source]
Yeah well maybe the rest should get off their ass and vote then chief
replies(2): >>45782058 #>>45782312 #
8. wat10000 ◴[] No.45781997[source]
I really enjoy the American political dynamic where Democrats are the only ones considered to have any agency. If Democrats do it, it’s Democrats’ fault. If Republicans do it, it’s Democrats’ fault for provoking them or not doing enough to stop them. Nothing is ever the responsibility of the people who cast their votes for Trump.
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9. wat10000 ◴[] No.45782058{3}[source]
A third are for it. A third are against it. A third just don’t care.
10. mothballed ◴[] No.45782128{3}[source]
The Democratic party selects the Democrat candidate in a two-party system.

It can be argued as shared fault.

By, without vote/primary, unilaterally selecting a candidate to go on the ballot an unelected bureaucracy jammed up the election. Unfortunately in USA, it doesn't work how you propose, whether you appear on ballot is only up to democratic choice if there are primaries, if not an unelected bureaucracy selects the people that actually go on the ballot and due to dynamics of our voting system virtually ensure those will be the options.

In most states you basically have Democrat, Republican, maybe Libertarian party nominated candidate on the ballot and that is it. Writing in is throwing your vote.

I would argue we probably could fix this with write-in only and some sort of ranked voting kind of system or similar, but as it stands a large part of the election process is vulnerable to anti-democratic processes and this played out in Trump's favor last election.

replies(1): >>45782536 #
11. whoooboyy ◴[] No.45782131{3}[source]
FWIW, as a left of democrat voter, the Dems have been a corporate captured neoliberal party for 40 years. They spent a lot of time building the infrastructure for a Trump-like. Biden and Harris were uniquely poor opponents to run.

That doesn't absolve the republicans for turning to fascism, but we shouldn't say the Dems are blameless here.

replies(1): >>45782565 #
12. Spivak ◴[] No.45782141{3}[source]
I think it's because people, somewhat rightfully, consider the descent into a fascist regime to be a force of nature—a bug in humanity v1.0 that history has proven we have basically no internal defenses for. And the last election might have been the point of no return so it's frustrating to see the party opposed to the regime own goal so hard in the one election it actually mattered.
13. whoooboyy ◴[] No.45782150[source]
Note the parent said "voters" not people. Of the people who voted, yes, nearly half voted for this. You are correct it's a small minority of the populace, but not of voters.
14. righthand ◴[] No.45782312{3}[source]
Yes that’s a valid emotional criticism, I’m more worried about normalizing authoritarianism and fascism by saying “half support it”. We’re already sliding down because we’re lazy privileged Americans. IMO, stating that half agree signals an okayed complacency.

There are emotions (half support) and then reality (less than 30% of Americans). The emotions got us into this mess about misdemeanors at the federal level.

The authoritarians want you to say: “50% of people love this, give up already.”

When the truth is that 28% of people voted for Trump in 2024. He has lost a percentage of that support through his actions since January. Don’t help them normalize this through emotion.

Say it’s “half” is negotiating with fascists.

15. danaris ◴[] No.45782453[source]
This is unhelpfully reductive.

First of all, it's misleading in its categorization: "half of people who voted in the last election" is not the same as "half of all eligible voters".

Second of all, a lot of the people who voted for Trump do not meaningfully "want fascism". Some do—no question about that! And, unfortunately, some who didn't before have rationalized themselves into wanting it now in order to self-justify their decision to vote for him.

But many of them are low-information voters who genuinely do not understand what is going on, and fall into one (or more) of a few categories:

- People who have always voted Republican, because their parents always voted Republican, and that's just The Way Things Are.

- People who have been brainwashed by constant propaganda from Fox News over the past 30 years telling them that Democrats are Evil.

- People who have poor to no civics education, have seen their economic situation slide slowly downward over the last few decades (or fall off a cliff, eg in 2008), and have heard the various Republican candidates telling them, over and over, "Just vote for us! We will solve all your problems. You don't have to worry about how!" (or "...by punishing the evil Others who are the cause of every ill in this country", depending on how racist they're already primed to be)

None of that requires "wanting fascism". And I can tell you, from personal experience, that there are still people out there—left, right, and center—who genuinely do not know what is going on. They don't watch the news. They just try to get by. They have no idea that ICE is abducting citizens off the streets, that Trump has shattered the executive branch institutions that actually run this country, or that the Supreme Court has said that Trump can do whatever the hell he likes.

If you want to be able to fix a problem, you have to understand it in all its nuance, and just dismissing tens of millions of people as "eh, they all wanted fascism; guess there's no possible way to reach them, then" is the wrong problem definition.

replies(1): >>45783583 #
16. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.45782513{3}[source]
Probably the most horrible thing I heard this year: “I’m ready to watch people burn now.”
17. wat10000 ◴[] No.45782536{4}[source]
This boils down to: Democrats didn’t provide a good enough alternative.

Which I will completely accept as true. They didn’t.

From here, there are two branching paths. Did the Democrats put up someone who was actually worse than Trump? As in, are we better off than if the November election had gone the other way? Or did the Democrats have a better candidate who just wasn’t better enough to win? (Fully understanding that this is a very subjective question.)

It’s my firm opinion that it’s the second one. Harris would have been a better President. (So would Jeb! Bush, Mitt Romney, the festering corpse of Richard Nixon, or a frog snatched out of the Tidal Basin.) In which case, giving Democrats any blame for the outcome requires the people who voted for the actual winner to have no agency. They were presented with a choice and they selected the worse one. That’s entirely on them.

18. wat10000 ◴[] No.45782565{4}[source]
How about this: Democrats share some responsibility for the climate that allowed someone like Trump to gain traction. People who ticked the “Trump” box have full responsibility for the fact that he currently occupies the office.
replies(1): >>45784838 #
19. fastball ◴[] No.45783041{3}[source]
The American people have agency and are responsible for the candidates they elect.

But part of this process is candidates being nominated by the major parties, and the RNC put forward a candidate that people actually wanted to elect. The DNC did a worse job of this, as a seeming plurality of votes for Harris were not because they liked her, but because she was "not Trump".

Both parties have agency, but the DNC did a worse job at picking their nominee (assuming the goal was to win an election).

replies(1): >>45784764 #
20. BeFlatXIII ◴[] No.45783233[source]
You're not wrong about the process. However, I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that a popular primary candidate translates to a general election win or that the continual 2nd place primary finisher somehow can't be far more viable in the general election than the primary winner.
21. BeFlatXIII ◴[] No.45783260[source]
This is what abolishing knowledge tests for voting caused. It was an unintended consequence of a necessary reform.
replies(1): >>45783308 #
22. ndsipa_pomu ◴[] No.45783308{3}[source]
As I recall, those knowledge tests were specifically designed to prevent black people voting. Unfortunately, the USA seems to be regressing to a system whereby only rich white men would be able to vote (and only if they're going to vote for the fascists).
23. dfedbeef ◴[] No.45783583[source]
Not to be an asshole, this will not get fixed. It doesn't matter how reductive people are, helpfully or otherwise. The fascist cat is out of the bag.
replies(1): >>45783881 #
24. danaris ◴[] No.45783881{3}[source]
Oh, well, then I guess we should all just give up and deepthroat the boot, right?

Don't be absurd. Fascism rose in Germany, and was defeated. Fascism rose in Spain, and Italy, and was defeated.

We can defeat fascism too. We will defeat fascism too.

It'll just be harder if more people think like you.

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25. ergl ◴[] No.45784269{4}[source]
> Fascism rose in Spain, and Italy, and was defeated.

Someone forgot about the 40-year long fascist dictatorship Spain was under

26. anigbrowl ◴[] No.45784764{4}[source]
This is a sideshow. Harris was a poor candidate, and lost a ton of votes because she refused to commit to a ceasefire in Gaza. Th larger problem is the Dems lining up behind the idea of running Biden again even though he was obviously inadequate.

Dem flaws aside, Trump isn't just 'a candidate people actually wanted to elect'. He's an authoritarian, every major prediction about how authoritarian this administration would be has turned out to be correct, he instigated efforts to overturn the result of the last election where he lost, and 25-30% of the voting population likes authoritarianism and do not give a shit about what the Constitution actually says.

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27. whoooboyy ◴[] No.45784838{5}[source]
That's not incompatible with what I said, and indeed is largely what I attempted to convey.
28. anigbrowl ◴[] No.45784846[source]
Humans display a reduced set of consistent behavioral phenotypes in dyadic games https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451

Evidence suggests that about 30% of people will accept being worse off in order to inflict a greater loss on someone else. They form a plurality, with the other groups being win-win types (~20%), loss-averse pessimists (~20%), selfless volunteers (~15%), and inconsistent folks who may be confused (~15%).

Now this is just empirical observation rather than proof, but it's a good quality observation, enough that it has heuristic value. If you admit the possibility that about 1/3 of people are mean, then an awful lot of ongoing political phenomena become much easier to understand.

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29. tastyface ◴[] No.45784906{4}[source]
Obviously, fascism will be defeated someday. The cost is the issue. Defeating fascism in Germany required the biggest and most violent war in all of human history, plus a decimation of its population.
30. anigbrowl ◴[] No.45784935{4}[source]
In Germany and Italy it was defeated by the military loss of a total war. In Span it was defeated by the eventual death of Franco and the assassination of his designated successor, after decades of right wing rule.

You are in such a rush to be sarcastic that you're accusing the GP of wanting to cooperate with fascism, when they're simply stating the reality of the problem. You're saying naying nice words about the outcome you want to see, but ignoring the horrors between the institution of fascism and its eventual defeat. That suggests to me that you don't really have any idea or plan about how to overcome it, you're just wishcasting. The danger of this is that many people will advocate waiting for the next election to decide if it's really fascism (because that's an unpleasant thing people would prefer to avoid), but don't have anything in reserve if the election is subverted, and in any case are giving away the political initiative for a year.

Instead of trying to rally people with WW2 tropes (which the non-fascists are in no position to wage) it'd be better to build momentum toward general strikes, which have a rather successful track record in the US and have been quasi-outlawed as a result (eg by the Taft-Hartley act, which bans solidarity and political strikes by labor unions).

replies(1): >>45785236 #
31. SpicyLemonZest ◴[] No.45785236{5}[source]
I just don't see how you're going to run a general strike against Trump with the Teamsters and much of their membership on Trump's side.

My plan to overcome it is to make it clear to elite decisionmakers that they will be held personally responsible for the misery Trump's administration inflicts on people, including by many of the people who thought they supported Trump before they realized what he was doing. It's not a perfect plan, nor does it have a guarantee of success, but it seems better than the alternatives.

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32. anigbrowl ◴[] No.45786939{6}[source]
A general strike is general, not just trade unions. Not everyone will join in, nor will it be national in scale, at least at first. But it can disruptive enough as it spreads to slow down the economy, be the top headline every day, and push the administration into increasing untenable positions. A general strike isn't a formal legal state of affairs, but a combination of ongoing protest and economic stoppage that succeeds by the fact of mass participation, without any violent focus.

make it clear to elite decisionmakers that they will be held personally responsible for the misery Trump's administration inflicts on people

How?

replies(1): >>45790477 #
33. array_key_first ◴[] No.45787746{3}[source]
It's because everybody, republican voters included, understands that republicans are extraordinarily stupid and their policy does not work.

If you look at Trump, the only people who think he's honest are his opponents. His own supporters swear up and down he's a liar, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he won't do this or that. And this is their defensive! These are the best arguments they can articulate in his favor!

I think, the thing is, a lot of people don't want effective leaders or care. They want to win, or maybe they want to screw over some people they don't like. So go ahead and elect the idiots with bad policy, because government sucks anyway or something.

34. fastball ◴[] No.45788038{5}[source]
You can call it a sideshow, but it kinda seems like the DNC want the authoritarian to win as long as they keep scoring own goals.
replies(1): >>45788264 #
35. anigbrowl ◴[] No.45788264{6}[source]
What I mean is teh arguments over nomination process are a sideshow. I did not want Biden to run again, but the president getting waved through to run for a second term is a totally normal thing, and normalcy bias is a major Democratic flaw. I don't care so much about Harris picking up the candidacy without a primary when Biden dropped out, it wasn't ideal but a rushed primary would have been a different sort of shitshow.
36. spencerflem ◴[] No.45788844{3}[source]
Yeah, I think this is super important.

I didn’t come to this easily, as someone who generally believes in the goodness of others. But it’s really the only explanation at this point

37. SpicyLemonZest ◴[] No.45790477{7}[source]
Perhaps we're talking about different things? When I imagine a "general strike", I envision something like the general strike in Italy last month, where major trade unions got together to announce that October 3 is strike day and everyone in Italy should go on strike together. I'm not sure what a general strike without broad participation, national scale, or labor movement backing is.