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Go subtleties

(harrisoncramer.me)
235 points darccio | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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rowanseymour ◴[] No.45666258[source]
Ah the old nil values boxed into non-nil interfaces. Even after 8 years writing go code almost every day this still bites me occasionally. I've never seen code that actually uses this. I understand why it is the way it is but I hate it.
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aatd86 ◴[] No.45666792[source]
Yes, that'a bit too late after ten+ years perhaps but I wished we had a nil type and checking whether the interface is empty was a type assertion. In all other cases, like any(2) == 2, we compare the values.

Then again that would mean that the nil identifier would be coerced into a typed nil and we would check for the nilness of what is inside an interface in any(somepointer) == nil.

wrt the current behavior, it also makes sense to have a nil value that remains untyped. But in many other cases we do have that automatic inference/coercion, for instance when we set a pointer to nil.(p = nil)

That's quite subtle and that ship has sailed though.

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rowanseymour ◴[] No.45666878[source]
Agree the ship has likely sailed, but if it could be addressed wouldn't it be nice to remove nil value interfaces altogether? Maybe start by letting new interface types declare/annotate that they don't box nil values? Then one day that becomes the default. Oh well.
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jerf ◴[] No.45670974[source]
It's not that the ship has sailed, it is that if you sit down and sketch out what people think they want it is logically incoherent. What Go does is the logically-coherent result of the way interfaces work and the fact that "nil" values are not invalid. It is perfectly legal for a "nil" pointer to validly implement an interface. For instance, see https://go.dev/play/p/JBsa8XXxeJP , where a nil pointer of "*Repeater" is a completely valid implementation of the io.Reader interface; it represents the "don't repeat anything at all" value.

In light of that fact, it would cause the interface rules to grow a unique wart that doesn't accomplish anything if interfaces tried to ban putting "nil" pointers into them. The correct answer is to not to create invalid values in the first place [1] and basically "don't do that", but that's not a "don't do that because it ought to do what you think and it just doesn't for some reason", it's a "don't do that because what you think should happen is in fact wrong and you need to learn to think the right thing".

Interfaces can not decide to not box nil values, because interfaces are not supposed to "know" what is and is not a legal value that implements them. It is the responsibility of the code that puts a value into the interface to ensure that the value correctly implements the interface. Note how you could not have io.Reader label itself as "not containing a nil" in my example above, because io.Reader has no way to "know" what my Repeater is. The job of an io.Reader value is to Read([]byte) (int error), and if it can't do that, it is not io.Reader's "fault". It is the fault of the code that made a promise that some value fits into the io.Reader interface when it doesn't.

In Go, nil is not the same thing as invalid [2] and until you stop forcing that idea into the language from other previous languages you've used you're going to not just have a bad time here, but elsewhere as well, e.g., in the behavior of the various nil values for slice and map and such.

One can more justifiably make the complaint that there is often no easy way to make a clearly-invalid value in Go the way a sum type can clearly declare an "Invalid/None/Empty/NULL", or even declare multiple such values in a single type if the semantics call for it, but that's a separate issue and doesn't make "nil" be the invalid value in current Go. Go does not have a dedicated "invalid" value, nor does it have a value of a given type that methods can not be called on.

(You can also ask for Go to have more features that make it harder to stick invalid values into an interface, but if you try to follow that to the point where it is literally impossible, you end up in dependently-typed languages, which currently have no practical implementations. Nothing can prevent you, in any current popular language, from labelling a bit of code as implementing an interface/trait/set of methods and simply being wrong about that fact. So it's all a question of where the tradeoffs are in the end, since "totally accurately correct interfaces" are not currently known to even be possible.)

[1]: https://jerf.org/iri/post/2957/

[2]: https://jerf.org/iri/post/2023/value_validity/

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1. ngrilly ◴[] No.45673235[source]
Your blog posts (that I read a few weeks ago) and your comment here are the best explanations I've ever read on this topic. You're not just looking at the surface of the problem, but diving in the why it is like that, semantically. I really like that you mentioned dependent typing in your conclusion.