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184 points mikhael | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
1. kronodeus ◴[] No.45662412[source]
This article is written in a very annoying and misleading way. The discovery is not that rotation can be "reset". That is obvious and not surprising at all. Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations. The actual discovery is the shortcut to the original position without the need to perfectly inverse the full sequence of rotations.
replies(2): >>45662503 #>>45662910 #
2. clysm ◴[] No.45662503[source]
Kind of like… a “hidden reset”…
replies(1): >>45663431 #
3. godelski ◴[] No.45662910[source]

  > Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations
This doesn't really make sense. To do that you'd have to end up bringing in quantum dynamics, and well... we know how that goes.

Heat is probably the best example, as even if you were able to track the movement of particles individually you'd have a very difficult time putting them back in order. The development of thermal stat-mech is one of the things that led to the quantum revolution and "new physics". But if you only have a "calculus" based understanding of physics you likely aren't going to be familiar with this. It's not much discussed (it is some) if you didn't start entering upper division physics classes or equivalent coursework. It really shows up when you get into the weeds, but understandably it isn't something stressed before then. Physics is hard enough...

Not all classical physics is time symmetric[0].

FWIW, I don't think the article is unclear. I mean they address your point in the first sentence of the second paragraph

  > Intuitively, it feels like the only way to undo a complicated sequence of rotations is by painstakingly doing the exact opposite motions one by one.
[0] There are examples on this page that do not require relativity or quantum mechanics, even though some do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-symmetry

[note]: The real paradigm shift in quantum mechanics was that there was information that we could not access. That's what Schrodinger's Cat is about. The cat doesn't sit inside a parallel universe, a quantum superposition. It is just that there is no way to know which of the states the cat is in without opening the box. It says that we cannot have infinite precision, therefore must use statistics. So Einstein's "god doesn't play dice" comment is about that there must be some way to pull back that curtain.

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4. oh_my_goodness ◴[] No.45663269[source]
Comment refers to classical mechanics, not all of classical physics and explicitly not quantum mechanics.
replies(1): >>45663600 #
5. kronodeus ◴[] No.45663413[source]
Not talking about thermodynamics here. The discovery referenced in this article also does not solve for thermodynamics or entropy.

And yes, you're right, the article does mention this later. I'm still bothered by the sensationalized introduction and title.

replies(1): >>45663784 #
6. kronodeus ◴[] No.45663431[source]
The title itself is not the problem, although even that is sensationalized. I was referring to the contents of the article, which have statements like this:

"Is there a way for you to spin the top again so it ends up in the exact position it started, as if you had never spun it at all? Surprisingly, yes..."

Which, as an introduction, just misses the mark completely by highlighting the least surprising possible interpretation of the research.

7. godelski ◴[] No.45663600{3}[source]

  > refers to classical mechanics
Thermodynamics is, in fact, part of classical mechanics
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8. oh_my_goodness ◴[] No.45663636{4}[source]
It is not. That’s exactly what it isn’t.
replies(1): >>45663923 #
9. godelski ◴[] No.45663784{3}[source]

  > Not talking about thermodynamics here.
My mistake, you said "Classical Mechanics", so I took it as such.

But thermodynamics is not required either. Chaos theory would be of important note here. Take the double pendulum for example. It is a chaotic function because unless you have the initial state you cannot make accurate predictions as to its forward time evolution. This is a deterministic system because there is no randomness in the forward time evolution. But it is chaotic because it is sensitive to initial conditions. I think you can see that there's a careful choice of words here and that once we start trying to reverse the evolution we will not be able to do so. We have to deal with injective functions and I'm not sure many people really think P=NP. Just because f(t) has a unique map doesn't mean f^-1(t) does. Do not confuse "deterministic" with "predictable" nor "invertible" (nor "reversible" and "invertible"). Nor should you confuse "Newtonian Mechanics" with "Classical Mechanics".

Besides, I don't think you can throw out thermodynamics just so easily. With it you throw out many things like friction too. Not to mention that you're suggesting you're also throwing out fluid mechanics. For the fun of it, let me introduce you to Norton's dome since we might want to look at determinism in Newtonian Mechanics and a frictionless system ;)

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10. godelski ◴[] No.45663923{5}[source]
I think you're confusing thermal dynamics with quantum mechanics.
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11. oh_my_goodness ◴[] No.45667249{6}[source]
No, thermodynamics just isn't classical mechanics. For example in thermo you have entropy. Entropy doesn't appear in classical mechanics.
12. kronodeus ◴[] No.45671620{4}[source]
Sorry, with all due respect, I'm not "throwing out" thermodynamics. It's just not relevant to the discovery referenced in the article, which is only concerned with classical mechanics. Thermodynamics is not part of the theory of classical mechanics. I think perhaps you are confusing classical mechanics with classical physics.
replies(1): >>45673826 #
13. godelski ◴[] No.45673826{5}[source]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics

See the beginning and the Limits of Validity section. It's "classical mechanics", "quantum", and "relativity".

Thermaldynamics can overlap with quantum but there is a classical regime. Which, let's be clear

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_thermodynamics

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14. kronodeus ◴[] No.45676446{6}[source]
I've lost track of the point you're trying to make. Are you still trying to convince everyone that quantum mechanics and thermodynamics are part of the field of classical mechanics?
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15. godelski ◴[] No.45684397{7}[source]
I never tried to claim quantum was part of classical