Most active commenters

    ←back to thread

    1245 points mriguy | 13 comments | | HN request time: 0.486s | source | bottom
    Show context
    roughly ◴[] No.45306289[source]
    I think there’s plenty of interesting debates to be had about immigration policy and its effects on the labor market, but one thing worth noting here is that the primary problem that damn near every other country on earth has isn’t immigration, it’s brain drain.

    A core strategic strength of the US over the last century has been that everyone with any talent wants to come here to work, and by and large we’ve let them do so. You can argue how well that’s worked out for us - having worked with a great many extremely talented H1bs in an industry largely built by immigrants, I’d consider it pretty positive - but it damn sure hasn’t worked out well for the countries those talented folks came from.

    replies(50): >>45306392 #>>45306449 #>>45306451 #>>45306457 #>>45306462 #>>45306472 #>>45306497 #>>45306499 #>>45306504 #>>45306532 #>>45306544 #>>45306577 #>>45306613 #>>45306652 #>>45306655 #>>45306707 #>>45306784 #>>45306794 #>>45306815 #>>45307051 #>>45307170 #>>45307207 #>>45307249 #>>45307273 #>>45307505 #>>45307522 #>>45307842 #>>45307910 #>>45307954 #>>45308178 #>>45308232 #>>45308290 #>>45308308 #>>45308580 #>>45309297 #>>45309977 #>>45310236 #>>45310640 #>>45310668 #>>45311024 #>>45311194 #>>45312042 #>>45312299 #>>45312339 #>>45312360 #>>45312401 #>>45312861 #>>45312907 #>>45313125 #>>45313178 #
    jpadkins ◴[] No.45306392[source]
    The top end of H1B has been great for America. In the last few decades, there has been growth of abuse of the program to get mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America. People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. We need to limit the volume, especially the immigrants that are directly competing with a hollowed out middle class in the US. Let me know if you want further reading on this topic.
    replies(35): >>45306429 #>>45306435 #>>45306452 #>>45306463 #>>45306474 #>>45306548 #>>45306582 #>>45306752 #>>45306800 #>>45306892 #>>45306969 #>>45307193 #>>45307317 #>>45307655 #>>45308072 #>>45308087 #>>45308523 #>>45308562 #>>45308675 #>>45309429 #>>45310492 #>>45310518 #>>45310562 #>>45310643 #>>45310674 #>>45310927 #>>45311128 #>>45311281 #>>45311391 #>>45311977 #>>45311996 #>>45312059 #>>45312333 #>>45312341 #>>45312487 #
    roughly ◴[] No.45306892[source]
    The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can. Immigrant labor contributes to that because we've got inadequate labor protections and because we bought into the idea that lower consumer prices was a fine reason to ignore both labor and antitrust.
    replies(15): >>45307113 #>>45308017 #>>45308184 #>>45308196 #>>45308657 #>>45309260 #>>45310496 #>>45310560 #>>45310945 #>>45311413 #>>45311663 #>>45312175 #>>45312308 #>>45312614 #>>45313787 #
    giantg2 ◴[] No.45307113[source]
    "The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can."

    Creating low cost alternatives and taking advance of lax laws is part of that. If you can import 100k skilled workers per year under a scheme that gives you more power over them. Then you also offshore 300k jobs per year to countries with weaker protections.

    It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections.

    replies(5): >>45308219 #>>45308538 #>>45311482 #>>45311620 #>>45313551 #
    1. sahila ◴[] No.45308219[source]
    > It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections.

    Why's that? The jobs and lives of individuals in those countries are better than the alternatives present otherwise to them. Globalization may hurt certain America jobs but certainly countries like India is grateful for all of the engineering roles.

    High consumerism is harmful to the environment but I don't think the link between offshoring jobs is direct to environmental harms and certainly it's helpful to giving more job opportunites.

    replies(4): >>45308276 #>>45308606 #>>45309107 #>>45312312 #
    2. sokoloff ◴[] No.45308276[source]
    I'm very much free trade and pro-globalization, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a candidate for political office in country X should be most concerned about the overall welfare of the citizens of country X, then next for the non-citizen residents of country X, then non-citizen/non-residents last. We can argue how steep the dropoff should be, but I think most people would believe that the ordering is that one, with some possible ties.
    replies(2): >>45308366 #>>45311520 #
    3. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.45308366[source]
    Good news! Native USian developers will no longer be made unemployed by cheap immigrants.

    Instead they'll be made unemployed by AI and a crashing tech economy.

    But that isn't the point of this. It's leverage - much like the tariffs.

    Big companies making significant donations to the Donald Trump Presidential Aggrandisement Fund will receive carve-outs and exclusions.

    It's a grift, like everything else done by this benighted administration.

    replies(3): >>45308393 #>>45310395 #>>45313712 #
    4. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.45308393{3}[source]
    I hope you are right. If this is just grift...well...I guess the bar is still low but at least it isn't at the bottom.
    5. franktankbank ◴[] No.45308606[source]
    Its arbitrage. You think the low rung indians are happy suresh is making top dollar programming a web app?
    replies(1): >>45312536 #
    6. roenxi ◴[] No.45309107[source]
    Insofar as a "pro-labour" position exists in practice it has to be anti-globalist. If pro-labour is going to mean something it has to mean trying to get labour a better deal than a free market would offer, otherwise it isn't really taking a position on labour at all. A key part of globalism is it makes it impossible for labour in any given country to avoid being paid the market price for their labour.

    Environmentalism is similar. Globalism fixes the amount of pollution globally to the market optimum where presumably an environmentalist wants to control pollution using some other system than markets.

    You seem to be arguing that globalism makes the world better off. I agree, but that is because pro-labour and pro-environmentalist ideologies are pretty explicit that they aren't trying to maximise the general welfare. A situation where one soul works very hard and happily for little pay making things for everyone else could be a good outcome for everyone (see also: economic comparative advantage). The pro-labour position would resist that outcome on the basis that the labourer is not making very much money. And the environmentalist would probably be unhappy with the amount of pollution that the hard work generates. The globalist would call it a win.

    replies(1): >>45310647 #
    7. itake ◴[] No.45310395{3}[source]
    its a common tactic for companies to force high paying employees to relocate to other offices, or leave...

    This could be a tactic to force lower end to go home and accept a lower salary at the same company for their same role.

    up or out. or in this cause, over or out...

    8. palmfacehn ◴[] No.45310647[source]
    Globalism as an ideology is distinct from globalization of trade. Globalists would argue for expansive supranational regulatory controls. Migration and alleged environmental concerns are typical rationalizations for their expanding powers. The distinction is better understood as between a set of liberal, laissez-faire trade policies and an emerging illiberal supranational regulatory state.

    Specifically when you say:

    >Globalism fixes the amount of pollution globally to the market optimum where presumably an environmentalist wants to control pollution using some other system than markets.

    We can observe that the Globalist organizations regard not just pollution, but carbon consumption to be something which markets cannot be trusted to manage. Instead they propose top-down regulatory management on a supranational level.

    https://www.imo.org/en/mediacentre/pressbriefings/pages/imo-...

    replies(1): >>45311518 #
    9. roenxi ◴[] No.45311518{3}[source]
    Hmm, yes. I am forced to agree. Sorry, please interpret my comment as talking about globalisation (the effect), not globalism (the ideology).
    10. simonh ◴[] No.45311520[source]
    Overall welfare is about more than just income though. It’s about national security, the cost of living, and the benefits of things like innovation, technology, culture.

    Let’s look at US imports from China. Last year that was $462bn worth of goods. Suppose the development of China never happened and all those goods were manufactured in the USA instead. That’s impossible, the US doesn’t have tens of millions of industrial workers lying around spare to do those mostly low end, low value jobs and if it did they would cost more and the goods would all be much more expensive. So the cost of living would go up, the economy would less efficient because many workers would be doing lower value add jobs than they are now. The country would be much worse off overall. It would basically amount to enormous government subsidies and protections for vast swathes of lower value assembly work than what many people are doing now.

    I support global trade because I think it’s best for the west. Not hyper-liberal ultra free market trade. Negotiated, rules based, moderately regulated trade and investment that is balanced to meet domestic and international needs.

    11. harimau777 ◴[] No.45312312[source]
    I could see that being the case in a scenario where all countries had strong labor protections. However, in practice globalism tends to result in jobs being exported from countries with strong protections to countries with weak protections. In that sense it is anti-labor.

    In the case of bringing in workers; those workers are less likely to join unions or demand good working conditions since they are effectively indentured servants. That also is bad for labor.

    12. sokoloff ◴[] No.45312536[source]
    They may not care about Suresh specifically, but they're probably happier than if no one in their country had a well-paying tech job. Suresh and his tech worker colleagues don't sit on Scrooge McDuck piles of gold coins; instead they spend the money in their country and community.

    I'm pretty sure my local pizza shop, waitstaff, and other small businesses are happy to have my money spent on their products and services. They don't care that I have a tech job, but they do care that I spend money with them, and spending money with them is only one degree of separation from having a job.

    13. cantor_S_drug ◴[] No.45313712{3}[source]
    In the recent podcast Balaji said, both Red and Blue America will start hating Tech for distinct reasons. Red America will hate for H1Bs. Blue will hate for AI displacing high paying white collar jobs.