Stone Age settlement found under the sea in Denmark

On a related note, since the Paleolithic rarely comes up on HN, something that seems to rarely come up in English language content; Menhir [1] (Long stone) or standing stones, which are spread all across Europe, some very elaborately decorated, others with sight holes cut in them, others extremely large, i.e., 30-40 feet tall before they were knocked over by the invasive meme, Christianity.

They are found from Portugal all the way to Siberia, but very little is known about them following the Christian meme eradicating the indigenous cultures through the many purges and programs from 300CE on.

There are some references that imply at least in some places they were a kind of connection to the afterlife and ancestors that would turn into birds that would perch on top of the standing stone, something that is still part of indigenous beliefs and practices in parts of Asia. It's basically the indigenous culture of the Native Europeans that middle eastern Christianity destroyed and eradicated like it destroyed and eradicated the Native Americans and so many other native people and cultures around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir

I think you are seeing this a little too 2d. The reason the Christian meme spread so well is more complex than that. A codified belief system written down, the thought of a God that loves and cares about you, a path to redemption and forgiveness for sin or mistakes, these are just some of the reasons that it has been so successful. It wasn’t always just forced on people although there was that too. It’s just a really good meme and great story when you get to the heart of it. The people meeting in secret when Christianity started and risking their life to do so weren’t forced into it at all. Like capitalism, Christianity fits a lot of human needs and desires that are hard coded in humans.

What about the indigenous people the guys with the menhirs killed? Why are menhir guys indigenous, but whoever killed them, not indigenous?

There definitely was a moment when Christianity was a secretive cult ostensibly fuelled by brotherly love, but certainly by the time of Constantine it had become a major political force.

My impression is that Christianity took over Europe more for political reasons than the good story. There were strong incentives for pagan rulers to "convert", and force it onto the populace.

I agree that the good story is key to its staying power.

The Wikipedia article suggest that they could have been erected as far back as 6000-7000 years ago - so older than Stonehenge, and therefor also older than Celtic culture. The Wikipedia article suggest that early Christians defaced and destroyed some of the stones, but knowledge about the people who erected those stones was lost way earlier than 300CE.

Maybe you also heard about an erdstall[0] which are old tunnel systems around Europe, often the entry is accompanied by an standing stone with a hole in it. Christianity did the same here. There is one case where they filled up the tunnel and build an monastery over it. Excavations and carbon dating revealed quite old objects dating between many thousand years. Some stones especially the ones in the entry area are big and heavy cut outs, the tunnels are often cut into stone. It’s still an unsolved mystery.

Heinrich Kusch[1] and his wife have done very interesting work regarding this.

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdstall 1. https://www.unterwelt-kusch.com/forschung/erdstallforschung/

I wonder sometimes if the people of Gobleki Tepe were just oddly prophetic or if cultural erasure has been going on a hell of a lot longer than we think it has.

Something I only learned well into my adulthood is that one of the reasons you can dig down and find the foundations of one, sometimes two different cultures below the feet of cities is that they used a lot of mud bricks, and when the house started to molder and fail they would pound it flat and start over, not haul the whole thing away. So a couple times a generation a neighborhood would be higher than it was before.

And the center of the city would be on a hill, and keep getting higher (even if expansion kept the slope roughly the same). Over time it would become more and more work to get to the middle of a city from the plains surrounding it.

Quote me the passage where he said they weren’t?

I just used Wikipedia as a quick reference in English. There is clear evidence that the practices of ancestors worship and their ancient practices involving these stones was directly linked to Christian persecution, including documented examples of the progroms against the indigenous Europeans starting immediately following crusades and effectively being part of them.

its implied in the definition of the word "indigenous"

> Christianity fits a lot of human needs and desires that are hard coded in humans.

Which version are you talking about because there is no one definition, Christians cant even agree amongst themselves about Christianity. Anyone is free to make up their own religion, include the bible in the lore, and call it "Christian".

Yes, I am aware of it, but thought I would limit the topic. It’s amazing when you start building a mental model of just how pervasive and expansive this whole system and lost, destroyed culture gets. I do find most explanations for the various “tunnels” rather dubious, especially the more “modern” seemingly medieval ones, but it’s all a very interesting topic. The indigenous European history and culture is immensely suppressed.

Can you provide some references to that. Also I've never before heard about Christian crusades earlier than the late 11th century one started by pope Urban II. Perhaps you are thinking about peoples like the Wends in Arkona (Slavic "pagan" tribe in northeastern Germany), who were force converted into Christianity in the 12th century. If they somehow were worshiping the stones in question, then that sounds more like retrofitting existing ancient monuments into their own religion, rather than keeping some ancient knowledge alive.

The question is whatever time period people discuss, somehow the indigenous people is whoever was there exactly before the time they mean. But people have moved around all through history and killed each other the whole way through so it's always strange. Almost as a rule the "original" indigenous people were killed by the "current" indigenous people sometimes not that long ago before the period under discussion. It think it's better to just use the terms for both groups. Also because it's a bit weird to relegate the conquered group to just "the indigenous", they have a name too.

I understand using the shorthand for encounters of two groups with very disparate technology knowledge like for example during the Discoveries period but when it's so long ago and people had access to "same" stuff it's a bit weird. My comment isn't a slight on the less powerful people it's weirdness with the term.

I don’t disagree with that perspective and would even go further to say that its structure offers systemic advantages over the indigenous beliefs. That does not preclude being regretful that this meme from the Middle East along with all the other memes don’t that region have devastated the natural ecosystem of the whole world like any other invasive species wrecks natural habitats and ecosystems.

I may not agree with things like Aztec practices, but it would clearly be a far more interesting world if they had been able to served against the Hispanics and were over there still doing mass human sacrifices and rolling heads down pyramid stairs and were replete with gold.

Frankly, I’m not even sure of the “brotherly love” story was not always a political force or tool more than anything else. It’s a rather convenient story to manage people rather than people who idolize and get inspiration from self-respecting, powerful, forceful, vengeful gods that demand you sell what you are owed. The religion we follow is the kernel or OS upon which all else is based.