Most active commenters
  • userbinator(3)

←back to thread

205 points ColinWright | 26 comments | | HN request time: 1.572s | source | bottom
1. Scarblac ◴[] No.45081381[source]
Is it possible to let owners use their hardware as they wish, without having large companies control what they deem "safe"?

I'm not the user of my phone, I'm its owner.

replies(4): >>45081410 #>>45081473 #>>45081786 #>>45088192 #
2. lblume ◴[] No.45081410[source]
Sure. But the societal losses of a vast amount of people getting scammed might in general be more important your individual wish for freedom to run anything you want on your device. I think there are important tradeoffs to be made, and that we have to acknowledge that many people in society less technically skilled might suffer from serious consequences in your proposed model of computation.
replies(4): >>45081430 #>>45081444 #>>45081452 #>>45084330 #
3. userbinator ◴[] No.45081430[source]
I say let them be scammed. Idiocy only grows if it's not resisted. People don't learn if they don't see the consequences. Otherwise it'll just make society head into an authoritarian socialist hellhole... not that it wasn't already going in that direction.
replies(2): >>45081744 #>>45082101 #
4. logicchains ◴[] No.45081444[source]
>But the societal losses of a vast amount of people getting scammed might in general be more important your individual wish for freedom to run anything you want on your device

The societal losses of a vast amount of people having no private, uncensored means of communication, which this is leading to, are orders of magnitude greater. The largest cause of early death in the past century was governments murdering their own citizens, and the more power governments have over their citizens, the easier it becomes for this to happen again.

replies(1): >>45085020 #
5. kikonen ◴[] No.45081452[source]
People get scammed over phonecalls all the time and we're not opening up for debate my freedom to accept calls from unknown users. Because why would you? Doing that is like using a nuke to kill a fly.

This reeks as a powergrab that restricts my freedom disguised with the classic "for the greater good". Same as the new UK age verification laws

replies(1): >>45081955 #
6. bluesign ◴[] No.45081473[source]
You are owner of the hardware, user of the software.
replies(1): >>45081635 #
7. anfilt ◴[] No.45081635[source]
Okay, but as the owner then I should at the very least be allowed to load my own signing keys for the boot-rom to load other software. Like what if I want to run/port linux to the device. A locked down boot-loader deprives me of full enjoyment of the use of my tangible property.
replies(1): >>45082303 #
8. saagarjha ◴[] No.45081744{3}[source]
People don't necessarily learn if they see consequences.
replies(1): >>45081791 #
9. thrown-0825-1 ◴[] No.45081786[source]
A nice sentiment, hasnt been true for a while though
10. userbinator ◴[] No.45081791{4}[source]
They definitely won't learn if they don't see consequences.
replies(1): >>45082038 #
11. mike_hearn ◴[] No.45081955{3}[source]
> we're not opening up for debate my freedom to accept calls from unknown users

That debate was had already and was lost. Phone scammers get blocked by telcos all the time.

replies(1): >>45090533 #
12. saagarjha ◴[] No.45082038{5}[source]
No, this is not true. It's definitely possible to educate people about security without them getting hacked.
13. scarface_74 ◴[] No.45082101{3}[source]
Yes there is a clear part from not being able to install what you want on your phone - even though you are free to buy a phone that you can - and authoritarianism. Did you know that you also can’t drive just anything on the highway and in some places you have to get your car inspected every year before you can drive it?
replies(3): >>45082434 #>>45083140 #>>45086360 #
14. bluesign ◴[] No.45082303{3}[source]
That is totally fair.
replies(1): >>45083206 #
15. matt_kantor ◴[] No.45082434{4}[source]
A key part of your analogy is "on the highway", where I am a danger to other people and public infrastructure.

I'm allowed to build a wacky unsafe DIY car and drive it around my own property without getting permission from the government. In many scenarios I don't even need a driver's license.

Bringing the analogy back around, maybe one could argue that if I let my phone get hacked such that it becomes part of a botnet or something then it is a danger to other people, but that's not the typical example. Usually these policies claim to be about protecting me from myself while using a device I own.

replies(1): >>45084295 #
16. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.45083140{4}[source]
Become ungovernable. Works for the french
17. salawat ◴[] No.45083206{4}[source]
...but we're conspicuously not implementing that feature. So take it, leave it, or build your own phone.

By the way, if you do go down the route of building your own phone, pedophiles, drug dealers, and terrorists will use it, and you're now on the hook to do something about it.

...Back to square one.

replies(2): >>45085129 #>>45094148 #
18. scarface_74 ◴[] No.45084295{5}[source]
Yes and you are allowed to use Graphene and whatever “whacky” other open source alternative non Google Android OS’s that HN users always brag about.
19. unsungNovelty ◴[] No.45084330[source]
What this does is punish good users. Not stop scams. They will move on to something else or find solutions to this.

Same as the privacy invading tech/E2EE for "national security/protecting children online". You think banning VPN or E2EE apps is going to stop bad actors?

NO! As always it effects normal users for control/power or money.

How many times does this same thing get played over and over again? It's the same script you know?

20. lblume ◴[] No.45085020{3}[source]
> The largest cause of early death in the past century was governments murdering their own citizens

Sounds like an interesting claim, mind sharing your source / calculation?

21. prmoustache ◴[] No.45085129{5}[source]
That silly pedophile point is getting old. Most victims of pedophiles are part of their own family or social circles. In a majority of cases no phone or even the internet is involved to commit the crime.

We could ban the internet completely and minors wouldn't be any safer.

22. userbinator ◴[] No.45086360{4}[source]
in some places

...but not in others. Which is why those who still have the freedom will continue fighting for it.

23. EasyMark ◴[] No.45088192[source]
Of course it is. Phone makers could make so that you have to jump through several hoops to get to the "side loading" portion as a compromise. Instead Android is going down the Samsung and iPhone route to cripple the device into making it nearly impossible to root by a mere mortal curious person. Allowing a hard to get to side load switch fixes 99.9% of the issue and still allows for freedom. Google is actively choosing here to do the walled garden like Apple iPhone for profit
24. kikonen ◴[] No.45090533{4}[source]
I guess the analogy is not perfect since when making a phone call you're using the network (which you're "renting"). In that sense the callers are blocked from using that network, which makes sense (this would be equiv from being banned from uploading malicious apk to an app store I guess)

What I am saying is that I have not been stopped from taking calls from unknown numbers just because the call might be a scam. Likewise I don't wanna be stopped from installing an apk just because it might be a scam.

25. immibis ◴[] No.45094148{5}[source]
In Catalonia they're now arresting people with GraphemeOS on suspicion of being drug dealers because only drug dealers would use secure phones.

Which is a great advertisement for GrapheneOS.

replies(1): >>45095490 #
26. ranger_danger ◴[] No.45095490{6}[source]
No they're not. Please cite a single source of this happening.

There were unofficial statements made by third party android news sites that Catalan police claimed that "Every time we see a Google Pixel, we think it could be a drug dealer"... which, while obviously wrong on its own, is completely different than claiming they are actually arresting people on suspicion of drug dealing merely by using GrapheneOS.

Please stop spreading misinformation.