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1070 points dondraper36 | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.634s | source
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codingwagie ◴[] No.45069135[source]
I think this works in simple domains. After working in big tech for a while, I am still shocked by the required complexity. Even the simplest business problem may take a year to solve, and constantly break due to the astounding number of edge cases and scale.

Anyone proclaiming simplicity just hasnt worked at scale. Even rewrites that have a decade old code base to be inspired from, often fail due to the sheer amount of things to consider.

A classic, Chesterton's Fence:

"There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”"

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1. prerok ◴[] No.45069467[source]
You are not wrong, but the source of the problem may not be the domain but poor software design.

If the software base is full of gotchas and unintended side-effects then the source of the problem is in unclean separation of concerns and tight coupling. Of course, at some point refactoring just becomes an almost insurmountable task, and if the culture of the company does not change more crap will be added before even one of your refactorings land.

Believe me, it's possible to solve complex problems by clean separation of concerns and composability of simple components. It's very hard to do well, though, so lots of programmers don't even try. That's where you need strict ownership of seniors (who must also subscribe to this point of view).

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2. thwarted ◴[] No.45069676[source]
> then the source of the problem is in unclean separation of concerns and tight coupling

Sometimes the problem is in the edges—the way the separate concerns interact—not in the nodes. This may arise, for example, where the need for an operation/interaction between components doesn't need to be idempotent because the need for it to be never came up.

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3. prerok ◴[] No.45069961[source]
What, you mean like creating a transaction where if one component does something then the second component fails, the first one should revert?

Again, wrong design. Like I said, it's very difficult to do well. Consider alternate architecture: one component adds the bulk data to request, the second component modifies it and adds other data, then the data is sent to transaction manager that commits or fails the operation, notifying both components of the result.

Now, if the first component is one k8s container already writing to the database and second is then trying to modify the database, rearchitecting that could be a major pain. So, I understand that it's difficult to do after the fact. Yet, if it's not done that way, the problem will just become bigger and bigger. In the long run, it would make more sense to rearchitect as soon as you see such a situation.

4. motorest ◴[] No.45072434[source]
> If the software base is full of gotchas and unintended side-effects then the source of the problem is in unclean separation of concerns and tight coupling.

Do you know how you get such a system? When you start with a simple system and instead of redesigning it to reflect the complexity you just keep the simple system working while extending it to shoehorn the features it needs to meet the requirements.

We get this all the time, specially when junior developers join a team. Inexperienced developers are the first ones complaining about how things are too complex for what they do. More often than not that just reflects opinionated approached to problem domains they are yet to understand. Because all problems are simple once you ignore all constraints and requirements.

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5. prerok ◴[] No.45077277[source]
Indeed and I have seen it happen many times in my career.

Shoehorning things into working systems is something I have seen juniors do. I have also seen "seniors" do this, but in my view, they are still juniors with more years working on the same code base.

I have once heard it described as "n-years of 1 year experiences". In other words, such a person never learns that program design space must continuously be explored and that recurrence of bugs in the same part of code usually means that a different design is required. They never learn that cause of the bug was not that particular change that caused the unintended side effect but that the fact that there is a side effect is a design bug onto its own.

I do agree, though, that TFA may be proposing sticking with simpler design for longer than advisable.