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295 points AndrewDucker | 10 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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BrenBarn ◴[] No.45048272[source]
Our legal system is a shambles that is clearly not prepared to handle this kind of thing, even setting aside the situation with the supreme court. It's become clear that the "shadow law" of simply passing unconstitutional statutes, filing frivilous lawsuits, etc., is operating independently of the real legal system moves too slowly and does not have adequate mechanisms to prevent what is essentially a DDoS attack. All justice is delayed and so all justice is denied.
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eviks ◴[] No.45049638[source]
> passing unconstitutional statutes > independently of the real legal system

The former is literally the real legal system, nothing shadow about it. Shadow would be some hidden deal to drop charges or something.

It's also not DDOS when a huge part of what you call "real" is exactly the same, so not unwillingly overloaded but willingly complicit.

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dudefeliciano ◴[] No.45049939[source]
the real legal system is slow by design, to carefully review cases and ensure fairness. It should also be based on good faith. The vulnerability comes from one bad faith party flooding the system with bad faith cases and appeals (as trump is doing). Even when he fails, the process becomes the punishment for the opposing side (journalists, political opponents...). When he wins, he wins.
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rayiner ◴[] No.45053170[source]
> flooding the system with bad faith cases and appeals (as trump is doing).

Trump is winning most of these fights in the appellate courts and the Supreme Court. Activist groups are flooding the system with a bunch of weak cases, getting weak, poorly reasoned district court rulings, then getting overturned on appeal.

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1. brendoelfrendo ◴[] No.45053574[source]
I feel like you're unfamiliar with the Supreme Court rulings, which are almost unilaterally terrible. The Court has made some very torturous interpretations of procedure and precedent to justify rubber-stamping operations that even the conservative justices will admit are unconstitutional, preferring to instead punt the issue and allow the harm to continue, completely circumventing the merits of the cases. Several of the recent shadow docket decisions regarding injunctions have brought up the equities of the suits in question, making the bizarre claim that enjoining the Executive Branch from doing whatever it wants pending a full trial harms it in greater proportion than the harms being actually inflicted on ordinary people.

> Activist groups are flooding the system with a bunch of weak cases, getting weak, poorly reasoned district court rulings, then getting overturned on appeal.

Trump's > 90% success rate at the Supreme Court should be read as an indictment of the Supreme Court, not of the lower courts.

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2. jacquesm ◴[] No.45054767[source]
> I feel like you're unfamiliar with the Supreme Court rulings

I feel like you are unfamiliar with who you are replying to. That doesn't make it any less amusing.

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3. brendoelfrendo ◴[] No.45055107[source]
I am unfamiliar with who I'm replying to, but I don't really care; are they some sort of legal expert? If so, I'd expect them to understand that recent decisions such as Trump v. Casa and McMahon v. New York are pretty flimsy.
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4. jacquesm ◴[] No.45055182{3}[source]
> are they some sort of legal expert

Yes.

> If so, I'd expect them to understand that recent decisions such as Trump v. Casa and McMahon v. New York are pretty flimsy.

That's what makes it extra interesting.

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5. brendoelfrendo ◴[] No.45057529{4}[source]
Well in that case, that is amusing.
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6. rayiner ◴[] No.45058275[source]
> I feel like you're unfamiliar with the Supreme Court rulings, which are almost unilaterally terrible.

On the law, the rulings are correct. Article II, Section 2, cl. 1: "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." QED. The contrary "precedents" were ginned up to support Woodrow Wilson's racist fever-dream of an executive run by "expert" civil servants instead of the elected President: https://ballotpedia.org/%22The_Study_of_Administration%22_by.... I remember sitting in Con Law class and reading these cases thinking how obviously wrong they all were. I couldn't even dream that we would ever be able to clean out this horse stable!

> preferring to instead punt the issue and allow the harm to continue, completely circumventing the merits of the cases.

That's because almost all of the rulings coming up to the Supreme Court were preliminary injunctions where the lower court made no determination of the merits.

> making the bizarre claim that enjoining the Executive Branch from doing whatever it wants pending a full trial harms it in greater proportion than the harms being actually inflicted on ordinary people.

Read Marbury v. Madison and look at how much ink Justice Marshall spends trying to avoid enjoining the Secretary of State to do something as ministerial as delivering an already-signed letter. He literally invented judicial review in an effort to avoid that result. Think about how Marshall's lengthy analysis of how courts can't enjoin discretionary actions of the President would apply to the sweeping injunctions being handed out these days.

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7. rayiner ◴[] No.45059443{5}[source]
What makes you say Trump v. Casa is “flimsy?” The Supreme Court addressed injunctions against the executive in Marbury in 1803. Wikipedia’s write up cites scholars that say federal courts issued between 0 and a dozen nationwide injunctions in the first 175 years of the republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_injunction. The wikipedia write up is actually quite good on this.

McMahon v. New York is obviously correct. A preliminary injunction is an “extraordinary and drastic” remedy requiring a showing that the plaintiff is likely to succeed in the merits: https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/civil-resource-manual-21.... The argument that federal courts can supervise a reduction in force where the individual firings aren’t themselves illegal (e.g. race based) is a tenuous argument. Besides, what’s the irreparable harm? Being fired is one of the classic examples of something that can be remedied by after a trial with reinstatement and backpay.

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8. brendoelfrendo ◴[] No.45060392{6}[source]
For Trump v. Casa, I'm going to set aside the argument that "nationwide injunctions are bad" because it's not really relevant here. The court has had plenty of opportunities to shut down nationwide injunctions, 14 during the Biden administration according to your linked Wikipedia article, and I think you need to consider what it means that the court only now decides to close that door during this administration and this case, specifically.

With regards to McMahon v. New York, what makes you think that the plaintiff is unlikely to succeed in the merits? The court can absolutely take into consideration the intent of the Trump administration and McMahon as his secretary to illegally shutter the Department of Education. On the one hand, you have the executive branch's ability to oversee a reduction in force; on the other, you have the executive reducing force as an end-run around the duty charged to them by law. If the "unitary executive theory" means that the executive can discharge duties they are bound by law to execute, then the Constitution is meaningless (as Sotomayor cites at the very beginning of her dissent, Article 2 section 3 charges the President to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"). Your argument that irreparable harm extends only to the staff being fired is also naively narrow; the states brought the suit, not the staff of the DoEd. The states argue--correctly--that if the Department cannot carry out its duties, then a vast array of students and teachers that rely on services funded or administered by the DoEd would be harmed. It seems batshit to argue that the harms done to the executive by temporarily curtailing that power outweigh the harms that will be done to an uncertain but certainly vast number of people in the interim. It's worth noting that, in this case, providing relief simply means that the government must maintain the status quo for a few months or however long it takes for the case to work through the courts. Restoring someone's job with back pay is sufficient when one person is fired. It is not sufficient when the executive has eliminated 50% of a statutorily-mandated department of the federal government with an eye to cut more.

9. ilove196884 ◴[] No.45062915[source]
So according to you any country with a strong civil service is racist. Maybe you are unfamiliar with modern governance or norms.
10. ilove196884 ◴[] No.45062938{6}[source]
I do wonder about your opinions on the Impoundment control act. Should the president withhold money allocated by Congress?