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295 points AndrewDucker | 25 comments | | HN request time: 0.354s | source | bottom
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andybak ◴[] No.45045278[source]
Between this and the UK Online Safety Bill, how are people meant to keep track?

Launch a small website and commit a felony in 7 states and 13 countries.

I wouldn't have known about the Mississippi bill unless I'd read this. How are we have to know?

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zaptheimpaler ◴[] No.45045350[source]
Any physical business has to deal with 100s of regulations too, it just means the same culture of making it extremely difficult and expensive to do anything at all is now coming to the online world as well, bit by bit.
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kragen ◴[] No.45045609[source]
Websites aren't necessarily businesses; they're speech.
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1. TGower ◴[] No.45046388[source]
A blog is speech, but I wouldn't say that deciding to operate a social media site is speech. That said, there are plenty of good reasons to oppose this law.
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2. dragonwriter ◴[] No.45046414[source]
A social media site is speech (and/or press, but they are grouped together in the first amendment because they are lenses on the same fundamental right not crisply distinguishable ones); now, its well recognized that commercial speech is still subject to some regulations as commerce, but it is not something separate from speech.
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3. TGower ◴[] No.45046501[source]
I would disagree, for example section 230 reads "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." The content of the site is obviously speech/press, but the decision to operate the site doesn't seem like it is. Very possible I'm mistaken and there is case law to the contrary though, it's a nuanced argument either way
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4. dragonwriter ◴[] No.45046620{3}[source]
Not sure why you cite Section 230 as if it had anything to say about what is Constitutionally speech; other than inverting the relation between the Constitution and statute law, that is a pretty big misunderstanding of what Section 230 is (and the broader Communication Decency Act in which it was contained was) about.
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5. TGower ◴[] No.45046805{4}[source]
> A social media site is speech (and/or press

I suppose this is what confused me then, as it seemed obvious that e.g. the Facebook reccomendation algorithm isn't speech, so if a social media site would be considered speech it would be due to the user content. Section 230 doesn't in any way supercede the constitution, but it does clarify which party is doing the speech and thus where the first ammendment would apply.

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6. dragonwriter ◴[] No.45046860{5}[source]
> Section 230 doesn't in any way supercede the constitution, but it does clarify which party is doing the speech

No, it immunizes certain parties from being held automatically liable (without separate proof that they knew of the content, as applies to mere distributors [0]), the "publisher or speaker" standard being the standard for such liability (known as publisher liability.)

It doesn't "clarify" (or have any bearing on) where the First Amendment would apply. (In fact, its only relevant when the First Amendment protection doesn't apply, since otherwise there would be no liability to address.)

[0] subsequent case law has also held that Section 230 has the effect of also insulating the parties it covers against distributor liability where that would otherwise apply, as well, but the language of the law was deliberately targeted at the basis for publisher liability.

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7. kragen ◴[] No.45046926[source]
Speech isn't just shouting into the void; it's dialogue back and forth between two or more different people. Social media sites such as Hacker News and the WELL facilitate this, even when they aren't businesses, in much the same way as a dinner party or a church picnic does.
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8. TGower ◴[] No.45047027[source]
Sure, speech happens on and is facilitated by social media sites, but that doesn't imply that operating a social media site is a form of speech any more than operating a notebook factory is.
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9. TGower ◴[] No.45047109{6}[source]
So they are not the speaker for the purposes of liability, but they are the speaker for the purposes of first ammendment protections? That doesn't make sense to me, but it certaintly wouldn't be the most confusing law on the books and you seem to be more informed on the topic than me. Do you have any insight on how that dynamic would apply to something like The Pirate Bay? Intuitively on that basis, users uploading content would be liable, but taking down the site would be a violation of the operator's first ammendment rights.
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10. kragen ◴[] No.45047452{3}[source]
If having a dinner party at your house gets you busted by the police, you are not living in a liberal society. If notebook factories are under tight surveillance to ensure that their notebooks are serialized and tracked because bad people might use them to plot crimes, you are not living in a liberal society.
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11. TGower ◴[] No.45047491{4}[source]
I agree, there are better grounds to oppose such measures than "this violates the notebook factory owner's freedom of speech" though.
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12. kragen ◴[] No.45047619{5}[source]
No, it violates the potential notebook buyers' freedom of speech. The factory owner's freedoms don't come into it.
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13. TGower ◴[] No.45047685{6}[source]
Sounds like we are in agreement then, the root of this was

>A blog is speech, but I wouldn't say that deciding to operate a social media site is speech.

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14. kragen ◴[] No.45047887{7}[source]
I agree in that narrow sense—but shutting down social media sites denies the sites' users their human right of expression, as well as other basic human rights*. The fact that the site operator doesn't necessarily suffer this harm† seems like an irrelevant distraction, and I have no idea why you brought it up, or why you keep repeating it, if you agree that the site users are being illegitimately harmed.

______

* See UDHR articles 12, 18, 19, and 20. This is not an issue limited to the provincial laws of one small country.

† Unless the site operators also use of the site, in which case they too do suffer it; this is in my experience virtually always the case with the noncommercial sites that it is most important to protect.

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15. jcranmer ◴[] No.45048231{5}[source]
A lot of people want to conflate several things that shouldn't be conflated. To clarify:

* The First Amendment generally prohibits the government from enacting any laws or regulations that limit speech based on its content (anything you might reasonably call "moderation" would definitely fall into this category!).

* Private companies are not the government. Social media networks are therefore not obligated to follow the First Amendment. (Although there is a decent argument that Trump's social media network is a state actor here and is therefore constitutionally unable to, say, ban anybody from the network.)

* Recommendation algorithms of social media networks are protected speech of those companies. The government cannot generally enact a law that regulate these algorithms, and several courts have already struck down laws that attempted to do so.

* §230 means that user-generated speech is not treated as speech of these companies. This prevents you from winning a suit against them for hosting speech you think injures you (think things like defamation).

* §230 also eliminates the liability of these companies for their moderation or lack thereof.

There remains the interesting question as to whether or not companies can be held liable via their own speech that occurs as a result of the recommendation algorithms of user-generated content. This is somewhat difficult to see litigated because it seems everybody who tries to do a challenge case here instead tries to argue that §230 in its entirety is somehow wrong, and the court rather bluntly telling them that they're only interested in the narrow question doesn't seem to be able to get them to change tactics. (See e.g. the recent SCOTUS case which was thrown out essentially for this reason rather than deciding the question).

16. dragonwriter ◴[] No.45048257{7}[source]
> So they are not the speaker for the purposes of liability, but they are the speaker for the purposes of first ammendment protections?

People who are not “the speaker or publisher” for liability purposes have Constitutional first amendment free speech rights in their decision to interact with content, this includes distributors, consumers, people who otherwise have all the characteristics of a “speaker of publisher” but are statutorily relieved of liability as one so as to enable them to make certain editorial decisions over use generated content without instantly becoming fully liable for every bit of that content, etc., yeah.

And arguing the alternative is you making the exact inversion of statute and Constitution I predicted and which you denied, that is, thinking Section 230 could remove First Amendment coverage from something it would have covered without that enactment.

17. TGower ◴[] No.45048271{8}[source]
In the context of "Law requires age verification for social media sites" and "This is an example of the kinds of onerous regulations physical business owners have to comply with being forced on website operators", I took your comment that "Websites aren't necessarily businesses; they're speech." to mean that operating a social media website wasn't like operating a business because it's a form of speech.
18. Certhas ◴[] No.45049418{4}[source]
Conversely, if your restaurant is well known for hosting criminals plotting their next gig, it will be put under tight surveillance.

And if the police has reason to suspect that there is illegal gambling happening at your dinner party they can obtain a warrant to bust your party.

Hell even if your party is to loud and annoys the neighbours the police can and will shut it down.

19. Certhas ◴[] No.45049464{8}[source]
I don't follow.

If social media sites are shut down but I am free to post my opinions on my personal blog site, how is my freedom of speech affected?

Did I not have freedom of speech before social media existed?

Is there an implication in freedom of speech that any speech facilitating service that can be offered must be allowed to operate? That's at least not obvious to me.

I echo what others said: There are good reasons to oppose all this, but blanket cries of "free speech" without any substance don't exactly help.

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20. Terr_ ◴[] No.45049547[source]
> Speech isn't just shouting into the void; it's dialogue back and forth between two or more different people.

In some cases this arises in US Constitutional law as the freedom of other people to seek and encounter the speech, though I'm not sure if there's a formal name for the idea. (e.g. "Freedom of Hearing".)

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21. kragen ◴[] No.45055309{9}[source]
It sounds like you are falling into the sort of confusion that leads people to sometimes wonder if murder is actually wrong in a world where cancer and hunger exist.
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22. Certhas ◴[] No.45056039{10}[source]
I am fairly sure I am not confused. Instead I believe the post I am replying to didn't actually advance a coherent argument, but just appealed to emotions.

I am not sure that I have ever encountered anyone confused in the way you describe either...

23. fc417fc802 ◴[] No.45056493{10}[source]
On the contrary, you appear to be suffering the confusion that a service which facilitates a legally protected activity cannot be regulated, interfered with, or discontinued in the general case. Typically only targeted, motivated interference would constitute a violation.

Shutting down a notebook factory for dodging sales tax is not a violation of the rights of would-be purchasers.

24. FFFBBDB5 ◴[] No.45056633{3}[source]
freedom of association
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25. Terr_ ◴[] No.45057117{4}[source]
That usually gets used in more of a "you guys can't make a club together" sense, as opposed to "you aren't allowed to search for that keyword."