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449 points lemper | 6 comments | | HN request time: 0.405s | source | bottom
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benrutter ◴[] No.45036836[source]
> software quality doesn't appear because you have good developers. It's the end result of a process, and that process informs both your software development practices, but also your testing. Your management. Even your sales and servicing.

If you only take one thing away from this article, it should be this one! The Therac-25 incident is a horrifying and important part of software history, it's really easy to think type-systems, unit-testing and defensive-coding can solve all software problems. They definitely can help a lot, but the real failure in the story of the Therac-25 from my understanding, is that it took far too long for incidents to be reported, investigated and fixed.

There was a great Cautionary Tales podcast about the device recently[0], one thing mentioned was that, even aside from the catasrophic accidents, Therac-25 machines were routinely seen by users to show unexplained errors, but these issues never made it to the desk of someone who might fix it.

[0] https://timharford.com/2025/07/cautionary-tales-captain-kirk...

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ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45038827[source]
I worked for a company that manufactured some of the highest-Quality photographic and scientific equipment that you can buy. It was expensive as hell, but our customers seemed to think it was worth it.

> It's the end result of a process

In my experience, it's even more than that. It's a culture.

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franktankbank ◴[] No.45038936[source]
A culture of high-quality engineering, no doubt. Made up of: high quality engineers!
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1. kulahan ◴[] No.45044538[source]
Unfortunately, software developers are the absolute most offensive use of the word "engineer", because 99.9% of the stuff this field makes is a competition to take the most unique approach to a solution, then getting it bandaged together with gum and paperclips.

If this industry wants to be respected, it should start trying to be actual engineers. There should be tons and tons of standards which are enforced legally, but this is not often the case. Imagine if there were no real legal guardrails in, say, bridge building!

edit: and imagine if any time you brought up this issue, bridge builders cockily responded with "well stuff seems to work fine so..."

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2. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.45045578[source]
Yeah, this is a fairly classic challenge.

When it comes to safety stuff (like bridge building), there are (and should be) strict licensing requirements. I would have no problem requiring such for work on things like medical equipment, We already require security clearance for things like defense information (unless you're a DOGE bro, I guess). That's a bit different from engineering creds, but it's an example of imposed structure.

But I think that it would be ridiculous to require it for someone that writes a fart app (unless it's a weaponized fart app).

What is in those requirements then becomes a hot potato. There are folks that would insist that any "engineer" be required to know how to use a slide rule, and would ignore modern constructs like LLMs and ML.

I'm not kidding. I know people exactly like that. If they get authority, watch out. They'll only "approve" stuff that they are good at.

On the other hand, if the requirements are LeetCode, then it's useless. A lot of very unqualified people would easily pass, and wreak havoc.

From what I can see, the IEEE seems to have a fairly good grasp on mixing classic structure and current tech. There's some very good people, there, and they are used to working in a structured manner.

But software has developed a YOLO culture. People are used to having almost no structure, and they flit between organizations so rapidly, that it's almost impossible to keep track of who is working on what.

The entire engineering culture needs to be changed. I don't see that being something that will come easily.

I'm big on Structure and Discipline. A lot of it has to do with almost 27 years at a corporation with so much structure that a lot of folks here, would be whimpering under their standing desks.

That structure was required, in order to develop equipment of the Quality they are famous for, but would be total overkill for a lot of stuff.

I do think that we need to impose structure on software supply chains, though. That's not something that will be a popular stance.

Structure is also not cheap. Someone needs to pay for it, and that's when you become a real skunk at the picnic.

3. waste_monk ◴[] No.45048657[source]
My university offered (not sure if it still exists) a software engineer degree that was part of the school of engineering, had a mix of courses from the school of engineering and school of math and IT, and at the end of it you would be eligible to take the local equivalent of the PE exam and become a Real Engineer (I think technically you would be in the field of mechatronics).

IMO this should be the standard - software engineer should be a protected title, and everyone else would be titled some flavour of software developer or similar.

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4. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.45049963[source]
There are tons and tons of standards, some of which are enforced legally - you can't just supply software for the government, the military, banks, companies etc without certain certifications like ISO 9001, ISO/IEC 27001, etc

Now I'm not an engineer nor at all aware of what these standards actually mean, I'm sure they're pretty common sense and nowhere near as detailed as bridge building standards.

5. kulahan ◴[] No.45071172[source]
This is absolutely my belief as well. I think it currently detracts from the title of other, Real Engineers.
6. I_dream_of_Geni ◴[] No.45120141[source]
"Software developers are the absolute most offensive use of the word "engineer".

This, exactly this! I am a retired Aerospace engineer. 8 years of engineering studies at college and 2 years of work study before I was hired.

My son considers himself a "software engineer" and I have told him many times that he is NOT an engineer. He was homeschooled (so, pat my back there), never went to college, never studied programming at all. Yet he makes between $200K-$250K per year, 5 TIMES what I made as a Senior Engineer at Boeing. smh